Torquay United Fans Forum

It is 6 months since I last posted on here after pointing out the grave shortcomings of Gary Owers and how I was certain that would take us out of the National League, which it eventually did. I think supporters have to be very realistic here now and just try and understand the level of football we are now in. We really should be running away at the top of the table of this League we are in as the standard is so very poor. We are not however. Further more, we are sinking into the lower echelons of the division and if we are not careful we will spiral out of control and out of this division too. And that really would be the end of Torquay United Football Club. For Gods sake, just a couple of seasons ago we were in the Football League Second Division!
The buck really has to stop with Gary Owers. I commented last season that I did not believe he had anything like the tactical know how to get us up the table and furthermore I felt his lack of ability as a coach would get us relegated. Several on here laughed then, but they are not laughing now. I also said I believed a certain Kevin Millard would be the ideal man for the job, and again several on here shouted me down, stating that he had no experience of English lower level football and so would not be able to cope. Some even suggested he would make a good scout for Gary Owers. This was an insult to a man who has coached professionally in Costa Rica and Argentina at a high level. Lest we forget, his club Lambada, who he owned and managed and coached, transferred both Greg Goodridge and Rodney Jack to Torquay in the mid 1990's. He didn't discover them as a scout - he developed them as a coach and manager! For those who criticised me last season for suggesting Millard would be the answer, I suggest they look at the Spanish La Liga and read about the same Millard's exploits as MANAGER of FC Cartagena in the Spanish Second Division. Playing, and defeating teams like Real Sociedad and Getafe in the Spanish Cup. He sent a letter into Torquay FC enquiring about any position being available 18 months ago and apparently did not even get the courtesy of a reply from Harrop etc. But, never mind, we have Owers and we can see the outstanding job he is doing can't we?

A journo has apparently said he saw a certain Kevin Millard (someone I felt we should have taken on as manager) in the company of TUFC officials prior to the match today. I happen to know he coaches in Spain, at a high level, so fail to see that this means anything at all.

Very sad and disappointed yet again with the result today. In fact, regardless of what anyone else says, each and every week we are gradually getting worse, and it should be obvious to all and sundry that we are now doomed. Too few games left and too many points needed. And to make matters worse, many of our rivals at the bottom are continually picking up points (remember my comments on Solihull Moors and their new manager with his progressive vision?) and most now have games in hand on us as well.

Very sad but also pretty true as well. If I had enough money I would buy the club and I already have a manager in mind, a scouting system ready-made in place which I am sure would be made available, and a business manager to run the financial side of things.

Sadly I don't have the funds to take it any further than outline plans in my head.

Southampton Gull

Sadly, it is so difficult when a player who has spent most of his time at a club is offered the position of managing that same club, either as player-manager or simply manager. Even on reflection after it has gone badly wrong, and in most cases it does go badly wrong, most will still say they have no regrets. Unfortunately, the person may find his career comes to a juddering halt as a manager directly as a result of accepting that position, but more importantly it can set a club back an enormous amount during the time that player is trying to manage the team. That is the position TUFC and KN find themselves in now. I am sure if KN had sought the advice of someone with a lot of experience in the game he may well have looked differently at his position, and his career could have been developing elsewhere plus TUFC may have been able to appoint an EXPERIENCED manager which is what they really needed to get them out of that position.

As I have said before, many players do make that mistake of believing they can accomplish something which they clearly are going to struggle with, but should the person taking the blame and responsibility not be the person who employed the player to become a manager in the first place? I firmly believe it is the club/Mr Harrop who should bear the responsibility.

I also believe that if KN was asked in hindsight if he were offered the job again, turning the clock back, would he accept it, knowing what he does now.......then he would still accept the position. That is what happens.

In my experience, if you are in a certain League, and you wish to get back up to the level above, where you were before, you employ a manager FROM the level you wish to get back to.......NOT one from the League BELOW that which you are currently in.

If you do this, you stand the best chance of getting the manager to take you into the level he has just come from.............I rest my case!

We are heading down there with Mr Owers at the helm.

Southampton Gull

In that case then, the people who appointed KN were unbelievably stupid, hoping that a rookie with no experience and no funds to work with could achieve that, and sadly KN stepped into a minefield from which the odds were so heavily stacked against him succeeding that he was simply lining himself up to be shot down and castigated for that failure, and it is a failure, whichever way we look at it, as he made very basic mistakes unbecoming of a football manager. His career may well have stalled permanently as a result of that as well. There are plenty of good and very experienced managers out there looking for a managing position and KN will be right at the back of the queue.

merse btpir wrote: ↑13 Jan 2018, 23:06 That's it in a nutshell to which you could ask why (if he was not exactly as you point out?) has he not landed another management job?

I'll tell you why; because he is unemployable in that role and he won't get another manager's job.

Sadly, if this were 30 years ago, KN would have been given ample time to learn his trade as a manager, probably even at Torquay United, but in today's world, football is no longer a sport it is 100% a business and such opportunities do not exist anymore as the financial losses incurred prevent that happening. Coupled with the fact that most of the club chairmen today are purely businessmen, with no footballing background or interest, it is no wonder that the likes of KN may struggle to find employment as a manager. There are, however, several alternatives such as going into coaching and forgetting about the managerial aspect of the game or even working overseas. There are many former top footballers in the UK who have tried their hand at management and have failed but have then gone on to focus on coaching only and have been successes. Former Liverpool midfielder Sammy Lee, whom I have known for many years, comes immediately to mind. Excellent footballer. Poor manager. Highly respected coach. In that order. So, in the cold light of day, KN was a good player for Torquay, but a poor manager - mainly because he was only just learning his trade and a struggling team at a club in disarray is far from the ideal scenario in which to learn the ropes! Perhaps if he went down into the junior non-leagues and learnt coaching he could make a career out of it. If successful at a junior level then people do sit up and take notice. But it is a long haul and requires a lot of commitment. But it can be done. But if I were him, I would look at coaching and forget about managing a club. Two totally different roles.

Yorkieandy

I just say it how it is as I see it. I have a background in professional sport and find it so sad that the club has simply gone down and down in a spiral without any attempt to address the issues that have caused this.

Southampton Gull

But surely that was not his total job description? For three years? If so it shows an alarming lack of any footballing know how on both KN's part and the club's. As for success.........well I certainly would not call that as any type of success!

Responsibility for all of this, the poor performances, the failure to replace KN until it was way too late, the decision to wait and wait and then eventually employ the current managerial team, which is again a failure, all rests with one person...the General Manager. He accepted that responsibility the day he took the job.

The general malady, the awful atmosphere about the place, the total lack of any information about the future of the club......again all rests with the General Manager. If he is not happy with what the Owner is doing, or rather not doing, then he has the right to resign with some crediibility. But he is the cog between the owner and the rest of the club, so he must bear the responsibility, like it or not.

arcadia
A reflection on what I have said several times on here. KN was a failure as a manager and this played a large part in the downward spiral suffered on the field. After 3 years he was still making basic managerial errors, though he did admit this at the end of last season. Managers today do not have the luxury of learning the ropes over an extended period of time in the lower leagues, as they either make it pretty soon or they are gone. This may seem harsh, but a club simply cannot afford to have a rookie manager at the helm struggling to find their feet, otherwise the team will suffer and relegation beckons, along with the financial losses that generates. Cue Torquay United. They opted to keep KN and let him learn his trade as manager, and the end product is that it was a total failure on all sides, but particularly from Torquay United's perspective. The short term and long term effect of this may be more than the club can withstand. Hmmmmm......that could suit the long term plans of a certain developer.........

Mattpuma

Failure to motivate young players is the responsibility/fault of the manager and his coaching team. Responsibility for this then rests with whoever employed the manager and his coaching team. There are more than enough young players out there who are willing and able to do a job for the club but it is up to the manager to find them, talk to them and convince them to join us, on loan or otherwise. Bearing this in mind it is IMPERATIVE that the club has a manager in place who has the contacts necessary to achieve this. I have already posted on here that Kevin Millard sent emails to the club offering 2 talented young players on loan, to which no reply was ever received back. I would suggest that, if the current manager does not have any contacts capable of producing the young players necessary for our survival, and I certainly haven't seen any evidence that he has, then he should never have been employed in the first place. And the responsibility for that rests firmly with Mr Harrop.

Mattpuma

I believe you are mixing up posts submitted by Southampton Gull and myself. Please check back and you will see.

Don't blame young players on the mess we are in. Don O'Riordan had a team with an average age of 23 and he certainly won games left right and centre before the club sold off many of them. He was a good manager and it is the responsibility of a manager to get the best out of his players, so therefore it makes sense to get the best man for the job. With respect Kevin Nicholson was a good servant to Torquay on the playing side but he didn't cut it as a manager......many ex players fall into the same category. So with us already being near the bottom echelons of the National League, something needed to be done. I would have loved to have see someone dynamic, with positive ideas and a proven record of success being brought in. The same Kevin Millard, who I repeat is now at a Spanish Second Division club, never even received any replies to his emails to the club, and I believed he would hve been excellent for the team. However, if the rule of thumb was to get somebody more negative, somewhat of a ''yes man'', in then at least get somebody with experience who could get us up the divisions to a level he was capable of managing at. But what did we do? Wait weeks and weeks in limbo and then take on a manager from a standard BELOW that which we were playing at. Simply a recipe for disaster and a fast track back down to the level of the said manager.