No one is denying those stats Matt, no one is denying that Martin Ling has done a very good job as manager of Torquay United.
Martin Ling is off sick from work with a stress-related illness likely to have been caused by the pressure of the job itself 'this is the issue here' If and when he returns to the job the same pressure will be there, that pressure will build again inside Martin Ling, it might cause Martin Ling to sign off work again with the same stress-related illness. sorry for the caps lock but WHAT PART OF THAT ARE SOME FAILING TO SEE.
How much has it cost the club to bring in Alan Knill to firefight this mess, can the club afford to repeat the process again next season if Martin Ling suffers again, as said the pressure and stress of the job will still be there.
Any update on Lingy?
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Plymouth Gull
Take Taylors abysmal time out of that though;
Under Knill;
Played 8
Won 2 (25%)
Drawn 3 (37.5%)
Lost 3 (37.5%)
For: 9
Against: 11
GD: -2
Points: 9 (37.5%)
Points per game: 1.125
Goals for per game: 1.125
Goals against per game: 1.375
Points per goals for: 1
It isn't really fair to judge someone who has played 9x the amount of another, especially when that other person is finally starting to create his own ways of doing things as Knill is now. Give it until the end of the season and come back but I'm fairly confident Knill will be ahead of Ling in a fair few of these "stats". Even then, as Dave says, you cant deny that Ling has done a good job, but it would be the wrong move for him to come back for all parties, in my opinion, unless he takes the decision to relocate his family closer to his work.
Under Knill;
Played 8
Won 2 (25%)
Drawn 3 (37.5%)
Lost 3 (37.5%)
For: 9
Against: 11
GD: -2
Points: 9 (37.5%)
Points per game: 1.125
Goals for per game: 1.125
Goals against per game: 1.375
Points per goals for: 1
It isn't really fair to judge someone who has played 9x the amount of another, especially when that other person is finally starting to create his own ways of doing things as Knill is now. Give it until the end of the season and come back but I'm fairly confident Knill will be ahead of Ling in a fair few of these "stats". Even then, as Dave says, you cant deny that Ling has done a good job, but it would be the wrong move for him to come back for all parties, in my opinion, unless he takes the decision to relocate his family closer to his work.
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ferrarilover
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A) You can't do that, it's all or nothing. If we're cherry picking, I'm taking out all the games Ling lost and he has a 100% win rate and is the greatest manager in history. I'm demonstrating the effect that he has on the club and the team. With Martin and without Martin was the comparison.
B) What is it with people and bloody quotation marks around perfectly valid words? They aren't """""""""""""stats"""""""""""", they're stats, that's what they are called, it is their name, not a psuedonym, it doesn't need the infernal bloody quote marks. This isn't "Friends", we aren't in "Central Perk", one is not "Chandler Bing"
Matt.
Here, have a "picture" of a "penguin" to make you feel "better"
B) What is it with people and bloody quotation marks around perfectly valid words? They aren't """""""""""""stats"""""""""""", they're stats, that's what they are called, it is their name, not a psuedonym, it doesn't need the infernal bloody quote marks. This isn't "Friends", we aren't in "Central Perk", one is not "Chandler Bing"
Matt.
Here, have a "picture" of a "penguin" to make you feel "better"
J5 said, "ferrarilover is 100% correct"
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Plymouth Gull
So I could include Buckle's record which (despite not wanting it to be) is probably better than Lings? Certainly better in the GF/goal per point areas or whatever.
I only did it because there were some quite pointless stats
I only did it because there were some quite pointless stats
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ferrarilover
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Double post, sue me.
Dave, the thing I don't follow is, mainly, the bit which is nothing but conjecture and baseless speculation (unless you know something I don't?)
IF Dinger is off sick with stress, there is no certainty that it was caused by his job. Indeed, the evidence suggests that he has been a manager for 10 years and has not once taken time off suffering from stress, despite being in a number of positions considerably more stressful (from the available data) than the one in which he found himself in January this year.
Even allowing for it being the stress of the job on the previous occasion, there is no guarantee that the same specific stress of the job will be there upon his return. Being manager of Torquay United is a bit like being manager of San Marino, no one really expects you to win very often, if at all, so there's startlingly little pressure in terms of results. It's a nice place to live and work (although I appreciate he does some travelling to his home in Luton or wherever), the people are friendly, the locals all call you "dear" or "m'love" as opposed to "oi, you" or "Ling you fat ****".
If he goes off sick again, then he is removed and a new man is brought in, just the same as happens 1000000 times a season these days (although Chelsea and Birmingham are responsible for about half of that on their own). We owe him nothing, despite the claims of some on here and if we do happen to have to pay him a trillion pounds in the event of there being a week in the month, I suggest that the Board sue whichever solicitor drew up a contract with such an insane clause written into it. Ask yourself this, if you get fired, do you get a massive payoff? No, didn't think so. Not sure why the contract of employment for a football manager would be substantially different from that of a bakery worker at Tesco or a PR consultant at a firm in London.
Matt.
Dave, the thing I don't follow is, mainly, the bit which is nothing but conjecture and baseless speculation (unless you know something I don't?)
IF Dinger is off sick with stress, there is no certainty that it was caused by his job. Indeed, the evidence suggests that he has been a manager for 10 years and has not once taken time off suffering from stress, despite being in a number of positions considerably more stressful (from the available data) than the one in which he found himself in January this year.
Even allowing for it being the stress of the job on the previous occasion, there is no guarantee that the same specific stress of the job will be there upon his return. Being manager of Torquay United is a bit like being manager of San Marino, no one really expects you to win very often, if at all, so there's startlingly little pressure in terms of results. It's a nice place to live and work (although I appreciate he does some travelling to his home in Luton or wherever), the people are friendly, the locals all call you "dear" or "m'love" as opposed to "oi, you" or "Ling you fat ****".
If he goes off sick again, then he is removed and a new man is brought in, just the same as happens 1000000 times a season these days (although Chelsea and Birmingham are responsible for about half of that on their own). We owe him nothing, despite the claims of some on here and if we do happen to have to pay him a trillion pounds in the event of there being a week in the month, I suggest that the Board sue whichever solicitor drew up a contract with such an insane clause written into it. Ask yourself this, if you get fired, do you get a massive payoff? No, didn't think so. Not sure why the contract of employment for a football manager would be substantially different from that of a bakery worker at Tesco or a PR consultant at a firm in London.
Matt.
J5 said, "ferrarilover is 100% correct"
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ferrarilover
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No you can't, in the same way that I can't just take out numbers that don't fit my theory, you cannot do the same to yours.NickGull wrote:So I could include Buckle's record which (despite not wanting it to be) is probably better than Lings? Certainly better in the GF/goal per point areas or whatever.
I only did it because there were some quite pointless stats
They aren't pointless, I explained, clearly, that I had chosen them since they reflect the business of doing what a football manager is there to do, score goals, win games, score points and finish as far up the table as possible. I could have chosen to look at the number of red cards we had under Ling and without him, but since that's not relevant, I didn't bother. I could have looked at attendances, or sales revenue from Boots and Laces or the number of people visiting the shop or the percentage of the home gate using the mens toilet by the Pop side entrance, but I didn't because they don't mean anything.
It's my ball and I decide who plays with it :na:
Matt.
J5 said, "ferrarilover is 100% correct"
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Plymouth Gull
But you're including Taylor & Knill as the same thing to try and prove your point, so surely we can include Bucks aswell, or rid Taylor out of it. They weren't working together, they were entirely separate. Just saying..
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ferrarilover
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"A basic statistical presentation to compare certain relevant elements of the Torquay United performance during the time of Martin Ling's managerial reign to seek to demonstrate the differing fortunes during Ling's period at the helm and his period away from that place, regardless of the incumbent replacement"
That is the little known, but official, title of my original post. It's with Ling and without Ling. It doesn't matter whether it's Mr Blobby or Kofi Annan in charge of first team affairs, if it ain't Ling, it goes in the "Not Ling" pile. If it is Ling, it goes in the "Ling" pile. Simples.
Matt.
That is the little known, but official, title of my original post. It's with Ling and without Ling. It doesn't matter whether it's Mr Blobby or Kofi Annan in charge of first team affairs, if it ain't Ling, it goes in the "Not Ling" pile. If it is Ling, it goes in the "Ling" pile. Simples.
Matt.
J5 said, "ferrarilover is 100% correct"
Matt, first things first, if you are able to correct someone's grammar or spelling you clearly understood their post, if you understand someone's post there is no need to correct either the spelling or the grammar, so on that score wind your neck in.. :slap:
Matt, agreed it is only conjecture on my part, however when you consider he never went off sick with stress while manager of Leyton orient, I believe he set up scouting networks for walsall and Hibs and did not seem to suffer with stress there either.
Yet 18 months into his time as Torquay manager he is off with astress related illness, so it either the job itself directly or to do indirectly with the job..for example being removed from his family, so unless those concerned can pin point what caused him to blow a head gasket and remove that element from the situation, then his return will could result in this illness returned sooner rather than later, can the club afford to take that risk, that is all I am saying.
Oh and B,T,W even though I will not argue with your stats, this is very true..."Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.
Matt, agreed it is only conjecture on my part, however when you consider he never went off sick with stress while manager of Leyton orient, I believe he set up scouting networks for walsall and Hibs and did not seem to suffer with stress there either.
Yet 18 months into his time as Torquay manager he is off with astress related illness, so it either the job itself directly or to do indirectly with the job..for example being removed from his family, so unless those concerned can pin point what caused him to blow a head gasket and remove that element from the situation, then his return will could result in this illness returned sooner rather than later, can the club afford to take that risk, that is all I am saying.
Oh and B,T,W even though I will not argue with your stats, this is very true..."Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.
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AustrianAndyGull
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In terms of whether Ling will have a 'relapse' should he come back then I fully agree with Dave (ForeverTUFC) and what he posted above. It's all might's and might nots and we'll never know what might happen if Martin returns until he has done so but all i'm saying is why take that risk? When there is a probability of the issue / issues recurring then why would the board want to put our club and it's fans through the ringer again for something that can be avoided by using their brains for a change? Martin may not encounter any more difficulties but if he does then we are left with another problem to deal with. We could still lose our league status because of how all this has been dealt with and associated delays and dithering and should we survive then to risk it all again is simply insanity in my book.
On the subject of the stats Matt posted then on the face of it Ling has a decent enough record and nobody can argue with it but IMO the most important factor is how those results were generated. We got to the play offs last year with a rigid gameplan which paid off. To go out, see if we could nick a goal and hang on. We did it well and regardless of how we managed it, some say it was because of O'Kane, some say our defence was better than this season, to me it's all irrelevant. The football i saw last season was also truly awful but successful. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if this weekly gameplan of Lings suddenly began to go t*ts up then the backlash would come fairly quickly, even from fans as patient as ours.
The signs were there at the back end of last season when the gameplan deserted us at the crucial stage and we didn't have any answers. A few striking additions at that stage would have got us over the line i honestly believe but for whatever reason Ling didn't bring anyone in. In some ways i'm really glad because if we had been a league 1 club this season we'd have been down by Christmas playing the same way and with the same players and it wouldn't exactly have been a barrel of laughs, even less so than this year.
I went to Fleetwood on opening day and although it was drab and we only really had an Ian Morris shot late in the 2nd half which he should have scored, i didn't think anything of it. I then went to Vale Park and got a shock 1-1 draw after taking the lead through our only break away, Howe squaring to Morris to score. We got battered but i commended that result and playing that way as we had young Kirtys MacKenzie making his debut and he was immense. We were battered and Saah nearly scored another OG which hit the post.
After that it was Rotherham on a beautifully sunny day, a perfect opportunity to come out all guns blazing at this brand spanking new stadium. We created nothing and put in the worst performance i had seen from a Torquay side since we regained our league status. We lost pitifully 1-0. Then Chesterfield, we started brightly for the first 10 minutes and had a few half chances and then that was it, again, another breakaway goal for Howe capitalising on a defensive error on the halfway line and getting a goal from nothing. We created nothing else, 1-1. Then onto Wycombe which saw a performance even worse than the Rotherham game, we went a goal down, Howe levelled before half time with another goal from nothing, we created nothing else and they won 2-1 and we made a then struggling side look like Barcelona.
You see where i'm going with this? I said just as much at the time and was ridiculed. It soon became apparent that this 'style' of football if you pardon the totally inappropriate word used to describe it was to be Ling's preferred tactic every week. The alarm bells perhaps didn't ring for some of you because generally we had some good results at Plainmoor in between shocking away performances but gradually even these became a hoof it to Howe policy and results stopped coming. I don't know when Ling's illness began but what i do know is that had he been able to carry on we'd be down by now.
So stats or no stats, i'd rather see us mid table and enjoying the kind of football Knill promises to bring than be in the hunt for a play off spot being comatosed each game under Ling. All you would need to to is leave the ground if we scored first as you'd know that would be the end of our attacking intent and we'll either win or draw and if we went 1-0 down you could leave knowing we'd never get back into it. The thing is that we played crap and won last season but this season we are playing crap and not winning and that will lead to fans voting with their feet and i can't blame them. I personally would want to go every game i can because i love going but this season i've enjoyed 30 minutes or so away at Burton where we played really well and nothing else. Each car journey home from such places as Accrington, Bradford, Rochdale etc has left me desolate and isolated as a Torquay fan.
i happen to think that overall Ling has done a decent job and generally his signings have been amazing for us. I want him to get better and get on with his life but there is simply no excuse for him exposing us to such atrocious football jus about EVERY week and there is NO WAY ON THIS EARTH that i want thatweekly feeling of dread to return next season whatever league we are in so pay the bloke off or move him upstairs for God's sake otherwise the words SHOOTING and FOOT and CAN and WORMS spring to mind. Why take the risk?
Sorry for the long post i just began waffling!
I just cannot comprehend how anyone would think it's a good idea to have him back. If Knill stayed i reckon we'd be at least mid table and be entertained. That's all i have ever wanted.
On the subject of the stats Matt posted then on the face of it Ling has a decent enough record and nobody can argue with it but IMO the most important factor is how those results were generated. We got to the play offs last year with a rigid gameplan which paid off. To go out, see if we could nick a goal and hang on. We did it well and regardless of how we managed it, some say it was because of O'Kane, some say our defence was better than this season, to me it's all irrelevant. The football i saw last season was also truly awful but successful. It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if this weekly gameplan of Lings suddenly began to go t*ts up then the backlash would come fairly quickly, even from fans as patient as ours.
The signs were there at the back end of last season when the gameplan deserted us at the crucial stage and we didn't have any answers. A few striking additions at that stage would have got us over the line i honestly believe but for whatever reason Ling didn't bring anyone in. In some ways i'm really glad because if we had been a league 1 club this season we'd have been down by Christmas playing the same way and with the same players and it wouldn't exactly have been a barrel of laughs, even less so than this year.
I went to Fleetwood on opening day and although it was drab and we only really had an Ian Morris shot late in the 2nd half which he should have scored, i didn't think anything of it. I then went to Vale Park and got a shock 1-1 draw after taking the lead through our only break away, Howe squaring to Morris to score. We got battered but i commended that result and playing that way as we had young Kirtys MacKenzie making his debut and he was immense. We were battered and Saah nearly scored another OG which hit the post.
After that it was Rotherham on a beautifully sunny day, a perfect opportunity to come out all guns blazing at this brand spanking new stadium. We created nothing and put in the worst performance i had seen from a Torquay side since we regained our league status. We lost pitifully 1-0. Then Chesterfield, we started brightly for the first 10 minutes and had a few half chances and then that was it, again, another breakaway goal for Howe capitalising on a defensive error on the halfway line and getting a goal from nothing. We created nothing else, 1-1. Then onto Wycombe which saw a performance even worse than the Rotherham game, we went a goal down, Howe levelled before half time with another goal from nothing, we created nothing else and they won 2-1 and we made a then struggling side look like Barcelona.
You see where i'm going with this? I said just as much at the time and was ridiculed. It soon became apparent that this 'style' of football if you pardon the totally inappropriate word used to describe it was to be Ling's preferred tactic every week. The alarm bells perhaps didn't ring for some of you because generally we had some good results at Plainmoor in between shocking away performances but gradually even these became a hoof it to Howe policy and results stopped coming. I don't know when Ling's illness began but what i do know is that had he been able to carry on we'd be down by now.
So stats or no stats, i'd rather see us mid table and enjoying the kind of football Knill promises to bring than be in the hunt for a play off spot being comatosed each game under Ling. All you would need to to is leave the ground if we scored first as you'd know that would be the end of our attacking intent and we'll either win or draw and if we went 1-0 down you could leave knowing we'd never get back into it. The thing is that we played crap and won last season but this season we are playing crap and not winning and that will lead to fans voting with their feet and i can't blame them. I personally would want to go every game i can because i love going but this season i've enjoyed 30 minutes or so away at Burton where we played really well and nothing else. Each car journey home from such places as Accrington, Bradford, Rochdale etc has left me desolate and isolated as a Torquay fan.
i happen to think that overall Ling has done a decent job and generally his signings have been amazing for us. I want him to get better and get on with his life but there is simply no excuse for him exposing us to such atrocious football jus about EVERY week and there is NO WAY ON THIS EARTH that i want thatweekly feeling of dread to return next season whatever league we are in so pay the bloke off or move him upstairs for God's sake otherwise the words SHOOTING and FOOT and CAN and WORMS spring to mind. Why take the risk?
Sorry for the long post i just began waffling!
I just cannot comprehend how anyone would think it's a good idea to have him back. If Knill stayed i reckon we'd be at least mid table and be entertained. That's all i have ever wanted.Strangely enough it was Pope Gregory the 9th inviting me for drinks aboard his steam yacht, the saucy sue currently wintering in montego bay with the England cricket team and the Balanese Goddess of plenty.
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Gullscorer
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austrianandygull wrote:In terms of whether Ling will....
.....Sorry for the long post i just began waffling!
...to an extent anyway. For a long long time I have been wanting us to play more attacking football. It looks like we're beginning to see it now.
If Martin Ling had been a truly well man over the past year we might have seen more successful, if not attacking, football. If he returns fully fit, we might well see successful (if not exciting) football again. But it's a big 'if'.
Lingy may come back feeling fully capable of doing the job, and would then have to prove it, and we should give him and the team our full support. Or he may feel unable to carry on in the role, in which case we can only wish him well in whatever job he may be suited for in the future.
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Scott Brehaut
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Apparently 110% of all statistics are made up
STIP
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AustrianAndyGull
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Scott Brehaut wrote:Apparently 110% of all statistics are made up
Gullscorer, there is no evidence from Ling's tenure as Gulls boss that he has wanted to evolve into a more adventurous manager therefore IMO i would be confident in predicting that we wouldn't suddenly see more attacking football should he stay on. As we both wish to see an acceptable level of attacking potency in our games then i'd recommend the board remove Ling from his post as respectfully and professionally as possible and pay the man his dues. No hard feelings. We can then move on with the transition for next season all knowing where we stand.
Strangely enough it was Pope Gregory the 9th inviting me for drinks aboard his steam yacht, the saucy sue currently wintering in montego bay with the England cricket team and the Balanese Goddess of plenty.
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SteveDeckchair
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Here's a theory.
Stress at work can lead to having the odd drinky poos in an evening to unwind (i've been there myself!). Staying away from family means freedom to have a drinky poos whenever the need arises. No family to offload problems onto and take your mind off 'work' stuff.
This could be described as being caused by stress. Stress related if you like.
Who knows if Martin Ling has had a drink problem in the past? I certainly don't, but if Premiership footballers can function with one, I'm sure a league 2 manager can. Differences between the Torquay job and other jobs that Martin Ling has held? He is not living at home with his family.
I am not saying that any of this is fact (I have no idea) but you can even take drink out of the equation and the hyposthesis still stands. If nothing changes (ie in the manager's personal life), then our (the supporters) concerns are that he will relapse. That would be a disaster for our club and this is why we need to see leadership in dealing with the situation. I hope this is happening, but in the background as quite rightly, the club MUST be seen to be doing right by their employee.
My fear is that the Chairman is doing jack diddly squat and we will bumble into next season with a manager who has half a mind on the job and half a mind on trying overcome his personal demons.
Stress at work can lead to having the odd drinky poos in an evening to unwind (i've been there myself!). Staying away from family means freedom to have a drinky poos whenever the need arises. No family to offload problems onto and take your mind off 'work' stuff.
This could be described as being caused by stress. Stress related if you like.
Who knows if Martin Ling has had a drink problem in the past? I certainly don't, but if Premiership footballers can function with one, I'm sure a league 2 manager can. Differences between the Torquay job and other jobs that Martin Ling has held? He is not living at home with his family.
I am not saying that any of this is fact (I have no idea) but you can even take drink out of the equation and the hyposthesis still stands. If nothing changes (ie in the manager's personal life), then our (the supporters) concerns are that he will relapse. That would be a disaster for our club and this is why we need to see leadership in dealing with the situation. I hope this is happening, but in the background as quite rightly, the club MUST be seen to be doing right by their employee.
My fear is that the Chairman is doing jack diddly squat and we will bumble into next season with a manager who has half a mind on the job and half a mind on trying overcome his personal demons.
Mmmmmm, beeeeeeeer.
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