Gillingham v Torquay United - 6/4/13

[Dave]

Jerry, in Martin Ling's last 12 games as manager we won 2 drew 4 and lost 6 , the rot had set in, all the evidence of what was about to follow i.e 7 defeats was there it was only a matter of time, lets not pretend if Lingy had not gone sick everything would have turned out just fine.

I do not fully blame Martin Ling, as said those at the top of the club have to take along, very long hard look at themselves, the situation was bleedin obvious the team needed help, some will say Lingy was offered loan signings and did not want them, well if that is true then maybe the chairman should have stepped in and not been so god damn nice, others will say Lingy wanted loan singings and was told there was no money,then Taylor was left in charge for how many games when it was clear he was not up to it, either way all roads lead back to the board.

[ferrarilover]

We've been bad on '6 occasions'? I guess that really depends on your initial expectancy levels. I can only assume yours are very low. Which is fine. It protects from a lot of disappointment I imagine.

As for losing the manager. Yes, it's pretty unprecedented, but how far up the table do you imagine we'd be had he not had these problems? Because I think the warning signs were there a good while before he left. His introduction of a style of football which was both boring for those watching and baffling for those playing, certainly provided an obstacle. Like I said, I expect fans of all the other clubs down around us would have similar sob stories (though would concede none can contend with losing a manager who preached a style of football which was up to that point, cutting a swathe through League 2 defences)...

If we go down it'll be because of the over-confidence from those in charge. The belief that we could safely disregard the playing side of the club and focus completely on off-field issues. It'll be because of the overly cautious nature of our performances. It'll be because the players just haven't done themselves justice regularly enough. It'll be because we didn't react quickly enough to the warning signs which were there for all to see (we wouldn't be lamenting the loss of Labadie so much if we'd adequately recruited).

There's a suggestion you 'make your own luck'. Good or bad.

Not even close to what I said.

This is nonsense. Completely untrue. Up to January, we were sitting happily in mid-table, and were only a couple of good results away from finding ourselves in the Playoffs. It isn't the point that we weren't playing like Barcelona, we were picking up points. Northampton are one of the ugliest sides I've ever seen, would you criticise them for their League position? None of them has a 'sob story' even remotely similar. Barnet's biggest woe seems to be that they can't sell replica shirts fast enough since Davids arrived, similar story with Accrington, who seem to be innundated with offers from ex-internationals desperate to play for them. Torquay, meanwhile, have lost their manager. Do you see the difference?

I hardly call the investment of £70,000 (the second highest fee in club history) as a complete disregard of the playing side. The loan window opened on January 1st and by January 5th Dinger was, unexpectedly, in hospital, never to return. Throughout January and for part of February, a man who was never designed to be a first team manager was in charge. What decisions could he make regards signings? He knows nothing and nor should he, he is the fitness man, not a bloody manager. By the time Alan Knill arrived, he had a matter of days before the window closed. He got in two players and missed out on several others (apparently). I'm really not sure what you think the club could have done. The one man who makes decisions regards signings was missing for the entirety of the transfer window and his replacement did a decent enough job with the time and funds available. We're Torquay United, not Manchester United, we haven't got a bottomless pit of money to chuck at loan signings, no matter how desperate the situation. Regardless even of that, the squad we have this year is at least 95% as good as the one which made the Playoffs last year, so it shouldn't have needed major changes, and it doesn't, it just needs the manager not to be struck down when we're doing alright and have the chance to maybe make the one addition which would have seen us do really well.

There is a suggestion that one's luck is of one's own making, but surely you can see that here, that isn't the case. Dinger's departure is the root cause of all our problems this season, that much is as close to proven as it can be if you care to recall the facts rather than the emotion of this season pre-January 5th. The club cannot steel itself against this occurrence primarily because it is wholly impractical so to do (we cannot have a spare manager just lying around on the off chance that the main man isn't available for whatever reason) and it was absolutely unforeseeable.

In a division where the Playoffs and the relegation places are separated by 17 points, it's daft to suggest that luck hasn't played a part in who is currently where. I can think of three games straight off the top of my head where we lost and should have won. It was only a chunk of bad luck on our part which saw us lose. That's an extra 9 points and puts us thoroughly mid-table. The difference between us on 46 points and Exeter on 63 points is not necessarily a vast gulf in class, more than their shots hit the post and bounce in and ours hit the post and bounce out. We found it last season, that we were winning a lot of games 1-0. Last year, the luck ran with us to a degree and we won a few games we perhaps didn't deserve to. This time round, we have lost a few games we deserved to win and it has proved to be the difference.

Matt.

[Jerry]

Jerry, in Martin Ling's last 12 games as manager we won 2 drew 4 and lost 6 , the rot had set in, all the evidence of what was about to follow i.e 7 defeats was there it was only a matter of time, lets not pretend if Lingy had not gone sick everything would have turned out just fine.

I do not fully blame Martin Ling, as said those at the top of the club have to take along, very long hard look at themselves, the situation was bleedin obvious the team needed help, some will say Lingy was offered loan signings and did not want them, well if that is true then maybe the chairman should have stepped in and not been so god damn nice, others will say Lingy wanted loan singings and was told there was no money,then Taylor was left in charge for how many games when it was clear he was not up to it, either way all roads lead back to the board.

At only 1 point in Ling's reign did we gain less than 6 points from any 7 game stretch (this was the start of his first season as he was still moulding the side to his way of playing, even then we got 3 points and then won the next 5 games))

We would not have lost 7 on the bounce with Ling in charge.

Even 1 win and a couple of draws would see us now safe and planning for next season.

You may not have liked the football but to suggest we would be in danger of going down if Ling had been in charge all season is fancyful.

[Southampton Gull]

Jerry, to suggest otherwise is also fanciful.

I'm not a Ling Basher but your view that we wouldn't have lost those seven games under Ling is pretty far-fetched as he undoubtedly had a say in how Taylor picked the team and the tactics employed.

[Jerry]

So we went from a poor side to the worst side in our history and it's just a coincidence that this happened exactly when the manager went off sick?

[Dave]

At only 1 point in Ling's reign did we gain less than 6 points from any 7 game stretch (this was the start of his first season as he was still moulding the side to his way of playing, even then we got 3 points and then won the next 5 games))

We would not have lost 7 on the bounce with Ling in charge.

Even 1 win and a couple of draws would see us now safe and planning for next season.

You may not have liked the football but to suggest we would be in danger of going down if Ling had been in charge all season is fancyful.

That is as maybe. But Jerry your guilty of a clear case of damn lies and statistics here. I will put forward what is plain fact, current form is and allways has been measured over the any teams last 6 games, what you not telling anyone is, Martin Lings last win as Torquay manager came on Decemeber 1st 2012 of his last 6 games (current form) the team won. 0 drew 3 lost 3 What more evidence do we need, that when I say team form was deteriorating, when I say current form when Lingy went of sick was a clear indication of what was to follow, I am spot on, right.

Yes it is just coincidence, the team was falling head long into a poor run.

[Chris B]

The idea that our failings are down to bad luck is far too simplistic.

Of course, no one could foresee Ling illness. There were, however, signs that all was not right. His preoccupation with a few dissenting voices from Bristow's Bench was uncharacteristic of an experienced manager. There was also a bizarre outburst about Torquay fans blaming Exeter for the postponement of the home derby (I never heard a single person suggest there was a conspiracy on City's part!), and he understandably voiced his displeasure at our pitch being 'as bad as there is' in the country.

Whether these publicly-voiced frustrations were a result of his illness or of the poor performances or of a board unwilling to finance further additions is unclear, but he wasn't happy. The team's results increasingly reflected that. His blind willingness to refer to last season's methods and wonder why they weren't working also suggested to me he either wasn't capable of, or fully engaged with, turning it around. Forever has highlighted our poor form, though in reality it stretched back to the start of November.

It is, though, wrong to assume Ling's absence would automatically lead to such a downturn. Phil Thompson's record at Liverpool after Gerard Houllier's health scare in 2001/02 was decent (P33 W16 D12 L5). Macclesfield in 2009/10 faced an even more difficult challenge – recovering from the death of manager Keith Alexander. At that point they were on a run of seven games without a win, and were eight points above the drop. When Ling left we were six without a win, also eight points clear. The big difference is Macclesfield record thereafter was P14 W6 22pts, whereas ours has been P17 W3 12pts.

Whilst the board faced an unexpected situation and difficult legal issues, this was all avoidable. The decision to allow Shaun Taylor – the worst manager, caretaker or otherwise, in TUFC's history – to manage unassisted for as long as he did was unforgiveable. And, of course, in the close season and beyond we'll judge how wise it was to appoint a manager so much more informed about northern based players, and Knill's own naivety in chasing and waiting on starlets from northern Premier League clubs.

[Jerry]

That is as maybe. But Jerry your guilty of a clear case of damn lies and statistics here. I will put forward what is plain fact, current form is and allways has been measured over the any teams last 6 games, what you not telling anyone is, Martin Lings last win as Torquay manager came on Decemeber 1st 2012 of his last 6 games (current form) the team won. 0 drew 3 lost 3 What more evidence do we need, that when I say team form was deteriorating, when I say current form when Lingy went of sick was a clear indication of what was to follow, I am spot on, right.

Yes it is just coincidence, the team was falling head long into a poor run.

So you counter my use of "damn lies and statistics" with some statistics of your own. :na:
I'm not in disagreement that we were and still are a poor team, and our results may well have continued to be poor if Ling had been at the helm.

The only thing we are in disagreement over is your claim that Ling's illness has had no affect on our season.

It is an extremely rare occurrence for a team to lose 7 games in a row, you have to be seriously rubbish.

There is no evidence whatsoever that we wouldn't have picked up a few points if Ling was in charge for those games, and it would only take a few points to have lifted us out of this relegation scrap.

The massive error the board made is in not realising soon enough that Taylor wasn't up to the task.

[Jerry]

as for the plastic pitch - see forevers reply!

Thanks Supes, I've read it twice and I still can't see where he explains how the Chairman giving an interview affects our performance on the pitch.

Seems like just another stick to beat the board with to me.

[SuperNickyWroe]

i think the point is jerry, that giving the situation as it was and still is, talking about plastic pitches shouldnt have been on the agenda at the time.

[Richinns]

i think the point is jerry, that giving the situation as it was and still is, talking about plastic pitches shouldnt have been on the agenda at the time.

Agreed to a certain extent but with the state of our pitch at the time means if very much was on the agenda and perhaps still a future aspiration.

[SuperNickyWroe]

Agreed to a certain extent but with the state of our pitch at the time means if very much was on the agenda and perhaps still a future aspiration.

state of the pitch - same as most of the pitches in the country at that time.
future aspiration? when for? jan,feb, march,april 2013? no.
but did we need to hear about it at that crucial time in the season?

[Richinns]

state of the pitch - same as most of the pitches in the country at that time.
future aspiration? when for? jan,feb, march,april 2013? no.
but did we need to hear about it at that crucial time in the season?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21165420
23 of Jan - BEFORE Ling went off sick and when we safely sat in mid-table (ish).
When is a good time to raise this if this was not?
Are you really suggesting that he could have foreseen all that has occurred since?

Many people on this site were still talking about playoffs at this point so (to use your own words!) - don't talk wet!

[SuperNickyWroe]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21165420
23 of Jan - BEFORE Ling went off sick and when we safely sat in mid-table (ish).
When is a good time to raise this if this was not?
Are you really suggesting that he could have foreseen all that has occurred since?

Many people on this site were still talking about playoffs at this point so (to use your own words!) - don't talk wet!

i can think of many that wernt either - the seeds of doubt were placed well before xmas.
and as i said why not wait till the end of the season?
i am suggesting that if the fans could see the problem with the team - and he actually stands with them why couldnt he?
is he blind as well as deaf?
and thats not talking wet.

[Fonda]

Not even close to what I said.

This is nonsense. Completely untrue. Up to January, we were sitting happily in mid-table, and were only a couple of good results away from finding ourselves in the Playoffs. It isn't the point that we weren't playing like Barcelona, we were picking up points. Northampton are one of the ugliest sides I've ever seen, would you criticise them for their League position? None of them has a 'sob story' even remotely similar. Barnet's biggest woe seems to be that they can't sell replica shirts fast enough since Davids arrived, similar story with Accrington, who seem to be innundated with offers from ex-internationals desperate to play for them. Torquay, meanwhile, have lost their manager. Do you see the difference?

I hardly call the investment of £70,000 (the second highest fee in club history) as a complete disregard of the playing side. The loan window opened on January 1st and by January 5th Dinger was, unexpectedly, in hospital, never to return. Throughout January and for part of February, a man who was never designed to be a first team manager was in charge. What decisions could he make regards signings? He knows nothing and nor should he, he is the fitness man, not a bloody manager. By the time Alan Knill arrived, he had a matter of days before the window closed. He got in two players and missed out on several others (apparently). I'm really not sure what you think the club could have done. The one man who makes decisions regards signings was missing for the entirety of the transfer window and his replacement did a decent enough job with the time and funds available. We're Torquay United, not Manchester United, we haven't got a bottomless pit of money to chuck at loan signings, no matter how desperate the situation. Regardless even of that, the squad we have this year is at least 95% as good as the one which made the Playoffs last year, so it shouldn't have needed major changes, and it doesn't, it just needs the manager not to be struck down when we're doing alright and have the chance to maybe make the one addition which would have seen us do really well.

There is a suggestion that one's luck is of one's own making, but surely you can see that here, that isn't the case. Dinger's departure is the root cause of all our problems this season, that much is as close to proven as it can be if you care to recall the facts rather than the emotion of this season pre-January 5th. The club cannot steel itself against this occurrence primarily because it is wholly impractical so to do (we cannot have a spare manager just lying around on the off chance that the main man isn't available for whatever reason) and it was absolutely unforeseeable.

In a division where the Playoffs and the relegation places are separated by 17 points, it's daft to suggest that luck hasn't played a part in who is currently where. I can think of three games straight off the top of my head where we lost and should have won. It was only a chunk of bad luck on our part which saw us lose. That's an extra 9 points and puts us thoroughly mid-table. The difference between us on 46 points and Exeter on 63 points is not necessarily a vast gulf in class, more than their shots hit the post and bounce in and ours hit the post and bounce out. We found it last season, that we were winning a lot of games 1-0. Last year, the luck ran with us to a degree and we won a few games we perhaps didn't deserve to. This time round, we have lost a few games we deserved to win and it has proved to be the difference.

Matt.

Matthew. Your continual referal to others' opinions as 'Nonsense', and your consistently condascending manner, very possibly prevent people posting more regularly. I've not read your post. Having referred to my own in the manner you did, i've got zero interest in what you have to say. But you were probably right. You always are.