Torquay United V Cheltenham

[Scott Brehaut]

Forget about 10 game plans, Knill's stats as a manager, etc. etc.etc.
Lets look at what he has done at TUFC which is what he must be judged on,
He stated when he took over that only a little fine tuning was required to turn things around. He struggled to recruit loan players, & the two (quite good)players he loaned were recalled at a vital time in the season. On the other hand Taylor's loan signing (Benyon) was signed until the end of the season....good plan Taylor! Knill did not save TUFC, although he may have perhaps instilled a bit of confidence in the players, what ultimately saved TUFC from the Conference was Taylor's player Benyon who managed to get a Morecambe defender sent off, & the comedy goal keeping error that put us one up, Oh & don't let us forget Yeoman's "goal of a lifetime" which gave us the 2-0 score.
Knill was signed on a permanent contract at the end of last season, but was not good enough to train up his existing staff, so had to get his little friend Chris Brass in to help him.
A lot of spin was put on his failure to sign players before this new season started, but I believe that he has not got any decent contacts in the game, & is not perceived to be a manager to send your young players to for them to gain experience, ( Ball being the exception that proves the rule).
His pre season performance is nothing short of dreadful!
He let Morris an under 21 international player go to Northampton who immediately made him captain....surely he should have kept him, improved him, & got a sell on fee for the club.
Knills next master stroke is to release Joe Oastler, who joins Aldershot in the Conference & is almost straight away selected for the England "C" team......another young player who Knill should have improved, expect Aldershot to get a fat fee for him in a year or so. Knill next failed to hold on to Saah, Howe & Jarvis ( 4 goals already this season for York). He could have signed Cooper as a midfielder & central defender but wasted the budget on other players & failed to recognize quality & experience. Knill then signs Harding in a tit for tat for them getting Morris.....not enough imagination to look elsewhere!......
There are quite a few other points that could be made about his management of the club, I have just listed the ones that really pi## me off.
I believe that he has assembled a very poor team which will struggle, the gates could drop dramatically if this very poor start to the season continues, & the weather gets colder. To sum up, Knill has fu#ked up what was a reasonable L2 side, his team is failing badly & he hasn't a clue how to turn it around.

[coley in stripes]

Todger, total unwanted negativity, after that lot (again), I suppose that you won't be following the GULLS any more. I don't think there is anything for you at the Club since you have found so much wrong....Yes, Andy has his occasional rants which raise reasonable points and usually attracts discussion.
Think you should be less emmotive . Is there anything you like about the Club ? Cups of tea ? hot dogs ? pies ?
'It's not big and it's not clever'. :na:

[AustrianAndyGull]

Cheers Coley!

Knill has brought in players who he felt would enhance the squad and you could argue that it is now in a worse state than when he took over. I believe the squad is a decent mid table one as long as we keep injury and suspension free in certain areas and Knill also plays his strongest 11 with a view to making gradual on field progress. Then come the summer we should be purring along quite nicely, be in a position to add a few more players to add the finishing touches to the squad and make a push for the play offs next season.

I'm hoping and praying that this is what Knill has in mind too and he is soon about to change tack and try a different approach to kick start our season. That is my hope. Wodger does make some valid points in his post which are all negative I admit but you can't disagree with most of them. I wouldn't say that Knill hasn't a clue how to turn it around as he has yet to attempt anything different (which is the main reason for the criticism thus far) so until he does this we cannot say this.

The crux comes when he does eventually change things. If results and performances don't pick up then we can take stock and look at where we are and re-evaluate things. I'm sure if this happens then he'll get stick for signing rubbish players which I think would be harsh, one or two are appalling but we have others on the bench who will do much better than the current incumbents once in the 11, they just need picking from Saturday onwards.

[Scott Brehaut]

Todger, total unwanted negativity, after that lot (again), I suppose that you won't be following the GULLS any more. I don't think there is anything for you at the Club since you have found so much wrong....Yes, Andy has his occasional rants which raise reasonable points and usually attracts discussion.
Think you should be less emmotive . Is there anything you like about the Club ? Cups of tea ? hot dogs ? pies ?
'It's not big and it's not clever'. :na:

Which parts of the post do you disagree with?

How about, instead of saying the negativity is unwanted (a bit like somebody banging on about the colour of the home shirts......), you argue back (in a reasonable manner) to counteract the negative post.

Personally I think he is spot on. I don't think Knill brings anything extra to the table that we didn't already have - and his record is, in my opinion, average at best as a manager. I don't think the Board had anybody else in mind and offered the job to Knill as soon as they got rid of Martin - this was a mistake. They should have advertised the role to garner interest and gone from there.

IF, and that is a big if, Knill turns it around I will be the first to admit that I was wrong about him, however nothing he has done in the first few games has convinced me that he will do anything other than keep the status quo. This weekend is the best opportunity for him to mix things around, especially with the recent performances of Nicholson. It will be interesting to see what he does.

[coley in stripes]

Andy, when Knill arrived, most were behind him and expectations were probably higher than should have been. BUT if we were 3 points higher in the league most would still be behind him. That's how tight I believe it is !....Despite his signings and the hopes involved, he still only had the 'saw dust' to look at and choose from...There is nothing that we can do other than wait and hope and use this site for voicing opinions, I accept that, but it can't be ALL negative, at least I don't see it that way !

[coley in stripes]

Scott, I made the point that the whole post was negative and lacked no positive points. But read above. If I thought it right to get involved in endless posts with someone with 'a bee in their bonnet', I would have done so. Thanks for the tips, but I know how the site works. :na:

[chunkygull]

="Scott Brehaut"
How about, instead of saying the negativity is unwanted (a bit like somebody banging on about the colour of the home shirts......), you argue back (in a reasonable manner) to counteract the negative post.
quote

whats wrong with banging on about the colour of the home shirts if you dont like them, dont agree with them and dont want them, if you give enough reasons why? :~D

[AustrianAndyGull]

Andy, when Knill arrived, most were behind him and expectations were probably higher than should have been. BUT if we were 3 points higher in the league most would still be behind him. That's how tight I believe it is !....Despite his signings and the hopes involved, he still only had the 'saw dust' to look at and choose from...There is nothing that we can do other than wait and hope and use this site for voicing opinions, I accept that, but it can't be ALL negative, at least I don't see it that way !

I don't see that Coley, especially not after the Ling era and the reason I say this is because the football that Knill is giving us is no different, often worse than Lings with no obvious signs of things improving. Therefore I don't think many fans would accept this. We are also speculating too about what if this and what if that which is the beauty of a forum but we haven't got 9 points we've got six and only 1 win in 7 and playing some awful stuff. That appears to be the reality of it and that is what fans are commenting on and are unhappy with IMO.

Anyway, i'm liking the new positive Coley!

Haha we got some stick last season me and thee for our views didn't we?! Happy days. =D

[ferrarilover]

Lets look at what he has done at TUFC which is what he must be judged on

Yes, let's

He stated when he took over that only a little fine tuning was required to turn things around.

Got a link?

He struggled to recruit loan players

Can you prove this? Were you party to the negotiations which took place?

the two (quite good)players he loaned were recalled at a vital time in the season.

That might have something to do with the fact that they were a couple of quality players that Knill, somehow, managed to convince to come to Torquay. The fact that they were recalled is hardly Knill's fault.

On the other hand Taylor's loan signing (Benyon) was signed until the end of the season

Yup, a bloke who hadn't played for anyone for more than about 5 minutes in the 3 years since he left us wasn't immediately recalled from a loan spell. I tell you, that Taylor, he's a genius...

good plan Taylor

Again, the fact that Benyon wasn't recalled is hardly any sort of indictment of Knill, it's just that Southend rated him so little that they really didn't want him back. We know this because he didn't really play for them at all during his time there. While we're on the subject of the DemiGod that is Taylor, do we all need reminding of the decision he made at Aldershot, when, at 1-0 down with a few minutes to go, he bought on a crippled Morris instead of new loan striker E. Benyon. Yeah, that'll work Wodger, try to push the Taylor angle...

Knill did not save TUFC, although he may have perhaps instilled a bit of confidence in the players, what ultimately saved TUFC from the Conference was Taylor's player Benyon who managed to get a Morecambe defender sent off, & the comedy goal keeping error that put us one up, Oh & don't let us forget Yeoman's "goal of a lifetime" which gave us the 2-0 score.

This, frankly, is tripe of the highest order and is so bafflingly stupid that it is hard to argue against with any cogency. If we're taking three points earned under Knill, why are we choosing the three against Morecambe where Benyon happened to play (as if that in itself is indicative of anything meaningful) when we could just as easily pick the three points we earned against Chesterfield, when Knill loan singing Ladabie scored the goal which turned one point into three? See how easy this cherry-picking nonsense is, you can use it to "prove" anything.
Please don't try to suggest the Benyon is some sort of tactical master and lured the young, inexperienced defender to his doom. The kid got himself sent off by playing like a headless chicken and diving in when he should have stayed on his feet. To suggest that he would have behaved differently if Howe, Ladabie or Mr Bean had been on the ball is absurd. What you've pointed to here is a goalkeeping error and a really good goal scored by Yeoman, a kid who almost certainly wouldn't have been playing had Ling been manager. Credit here must go to Knill for selecting Yeoman in the first place. Quite how a goalkeeping howler is supposed to count against Knill, I'm really not sure. By this stage, I guess you were struggling for actual arguments, so started typing words in the hope that people would simply take what you said as gospel without thinking.

Knill was signed on a permanent contract at the end of last season

Ah yes, a permanent contract, the classic sign of a crap manager...

but was not good enough to train up his existing staff, so had to get his little friend Chris Brass in to help him.

This is the stupidest thing ever posted on the Internet. Ever. If I need to explain why, then you need to see a nurse, because I fear you are clinically brain dead. Do you know who else dispensed with the services of the coaching staff when he took over at his new club this summer? David Moyes, the man hand picked by Sir Alex Ferguson (among the top three managers in the history of the game) to take over at the most important and powerful club in English football. To hold against Knill the fact that he chose to work with Brassy, a man he knows, respects, likes and trust, instead of Taylor, a man so dumb he once failed a blood test, shows that you really, really don't have a real argument to present and you are just spouting crap.

A lot of spin was put on his failure to sign players before this new season started

No, a load of old shit was hurled about by people who don't have the first clue about the inner workings of a professional football club, but go on...

I believe that he has not got any decent contacts in the game, & is not perceived to be a manager to send your young players to for them to gain experience, ( Ball being the exception that proves the rule).

Given the content of this post so far, it wouldn't surprise me to read that you also believe the moon to be made of cheese. Again, I ask you to prove this theory, or at least evidence it. Bearing in mind I probably know an awful lot more about the summer dealings than you do, choose your evidence carefully. (Ha, 'ark at me, as if I expect any evidence to be forthcoming. Still, one can dream). At Bury, he signed Nicky Ajose from Manchester United. Hardly the sort of club to deal with people they don't trust, I suspect.

His pre season performance is nothing short of dreadful!

What are you on about? The team's pre-season record read P.5 W.4 D.1 L.0 F.9 A.1.

He let Morris an under 21 international player go to Northampton who immediately made him captain

And at almost exactly the same time, they went from Playoff finalists to relegation favourites with a record of P.7 W.1 D.1 L.5 F.6 A.10.

Boy oh boy, what a mistake it was letting our superstar midfield general go there... Oh, no, wait, that isn't right. Morris is the bloke who played 15 minutes for us in two seasons, didn't score, didn't make an assist, and generally didn't do much... What Knill did was swap him for the captain of last year's Playoff finalists. A move which, on paper, was deal of the day. Imagine Wenger swapping Frimpong for Rooney and you've got a similar comparison. Just because Rooney goes on to be a flop, that doesn't mean it was a bad deal ab initio

surely he should have kept him, improved him, & got a sell on fee for the club.

Oh good, we're on to Football Manager mode. Surely we should have kept Carayol or Mohammed and got fees for them. Equally, surely we should have kept Mo Camara and Eyesdown Christie. That's the choice managers make. Knill didn't rate Morris, Morris wanted to leave, Morris left. We were never going to get a fee for him because, as he is proving with his performances for NTFC, he is never going to be a player in sufficient demand to command a fee.

Knills next master stroke is to release Joe Oastler, who joins Aldershot in the Conference

Ah yes, that footballing powerhouse Aldershot Town. Remind me, are they the ones that play at San Siro, in the blue and black stripes and attract some of the world's top professionals? Oh, no, my mistake, they are a non-league side in England who, at the time, were on -10 points, owed £1,000,000 and had 3 players to start the season. Oastler, a player so immensely talented that the best offer he got was Aldershot Town. Meanwhile, we recruited in his place the starting right back from a team in the division above us.
You really aren't very good at this, are you.

& is almost straight away selected for the England "C" team

The England C team, another hotbed of footballing excellence. There, he gets to play alongside such luminaries as Preston Edwards (what do you mean you've never heard of him?) and the ever impressive Kieron Forbes...

Knill next failed to hold on to Saah

Who left at the end of his contract, despite an offer from us. He went to Dagenham (who are as likely as not to go down) and we got Pearce in to replace him from League 1 Notts County. Do you see a pattern emerging here? We're letting players go to clubs not as good as us and we're recruiting, mainly, from clubs demonstratively better than us.

Howe

Again, end of his contract, was leaving long before Knill had even heard of Torquay United and was offered a deal by the previous drunk manager which he rejected. The Board would not be held to ransom and he is, consequently off setting the world alight at Burton. Oh, no, sorry, that's another error on my part. He's actually scored one goal this season. I'm sure that would have been £1500/week well spent. At that average, he'll finish the season on 6 goals, 7 if he's lucky.

Jarvis ( 4 goals already this season for York).

As I demonstrated in another thread (or perhaps earlier in this one), Jarvis is one of a very large number of players to have scored three or more goals so far this season. Well done to the boy, it's an achievement no doubt, but let's not go kidding ourselves that he'll end up on 28 goals by the end of the year (which is his present average).

He could have signed Cooper as a midfielder & central defender but wasted the budget on other players & failed to recognize quality & experience.

I'll give you the first half of that sentiment, we could have signed Cooper. However, the rest of it is up to (or down to) the same standard of the rest of this junk. Knill recognised perfectly what quality Cooper possesses, it's just a case of unfortunate timing. We didn't have a space in the squad for a midfielder and he was too short to be Knill's first choice centre back. For me, not signing Cooper was a mistake, but then, it likely freed up the money for us to bring in Mozika, and, with him and Pearce in the team, I feel that Knill has not only got two specialists in place of one Jack-Of-All-Trades, but he's done it without spending any more money. I'd love for TUFC to have the money to have Cooper in the squad, on the bench every game to bring on at a moment's notice to cover any one of half a dozen positions (a bit like a really good Chris McPhee). Sadly, the apathetic Torbay public would rather spend their money on abortions and tattoos, so we can't afford the luxury of paying that type of player a fairly hefty wage. Sad but true and ultimately not Knill's fault.

Knill then signs Harding in a tit for tat for them getting Morris.....not enough imagination to look elsewhere!......

Sorry, I didn't realise it was story time. What the **** is this supposed to mean? Since when has "imagination" been anything to do with recruiting players. This is the dumbest thing you've said since the last thing you said.

There are quite a few other points that could be made about his management of the club, I have just listed the ones that really pi## me off.

As opposed to listing any valid criticism at all. Well, it's an unconventional technique, let's see how it works out for you...

Knill has fu#ked up what was a reasonable L2 side

So reasonable, in fact, that they managed to stave off relegation in the last week having lost more league games in a single season than any Torquay side had managed for 6 years, and that was the year we finished 92nd of 92.

his team is failing badly

His team is doing what is has every right to, it's behaving like a mediocre League Two side. Have a look around the relevant forums and you'll see that the performances coming out of expensively assembled Plymouth, Northampton, Cheltenham and Bristol Rovers are far worse than ours and they have budgeted for promotion. Give up getting your panties in a bunch because we haven't secured the League title after 6 games.

he hasn't a clue how to turn it around.

Indeed, he is working hard to rectify the issues which he has identified. He is working within tight budgetary constraints and other factors which are limiting his manoeuvring room. He is dealing with Championship level clubs in order to rectify the issue of lack of goals.

All in all, one of the very worst efforts I (and I'm sure others) have ever seen at justifying an evidently unjustifiable position. Knill has been here, for the purposes of fair and honest appraisal, for 7 games. He's Alan Knill and we are Torquay United. Right now, with the off field investment as it is, the global financial situation as it is and other factors considered, I would consider where we are right now (19th) about three places below an acceptable finish. Meaningful chunks of the football we have played this year have been head and shoulders in advance of anything we saw under Ling and there is surely more to come, given the potential locked within the squad this year.


Matt.

[coley in stripes]

Excellent post Matt. I couldn't be asked to get involved in such negative tripe or spend the time in doing so, BUT I could never have answered it the way you have.....

[wodger of awabia]

Matt, Do try & learn the difference between opinion & fact, my post was informing readers of my opinions, which they may or may not agree with.
I will now write a fact which can be proved!!!!!

Knill is taller than Danny Stevens. :na: :na: :na:

[Sunnysideup]

Unlike me to agree with Matt, however you started your drivel with

Lets look at what he has done at TUFC which is what he must be judged on

which, on the face of it, you are presenting as factual (along with your assertations later in the piece). Dont be suprised when the likes of Matt pick your post to pieces.

[ferrarilover]

Matt, Do try & learn the difference between opinion & fact, my post was informing readers of my opinions, which they may or may not agree with.
I will now write a fact which can be proved!!!!!

Knill is taller than Danny Stevens. :na: :na: :na:

Wodge, I'm sure it was just opinions, and I applaud the fact that you feel strongly enough about the situation to make such a lengthy post outlining them. That said, opinions really need to be based on facts. My opinion that Ebbsfleet are the best football team in Europe is as valid as any other opinion, on the face of things. Sadly, it doesn't bear any scrutiny of fact. Equally, you're perfectly entitled (and indeed encouraged) to hold an opinion about Knilly, but to be respectable in its own right, that opinion really needs to be able to withstand closer inspection. On this occasion, it seems that yours doesn't. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean you should change your opinion, after all, being true to yourself is the most important thing in life.

I see also that in you, I appear to be dealing with a proper grown-up. One who manages to receive critique (and a smattering of jocular unkindness) without chucking dolly out of pram . A refreshing change.

Matt.

[Dave]

Had a feeling that Wodger's post was designed to gain a reaction, however must say anyone who try's to present Turnip as some kind lord amongst football coach's isn't worthy of having an opinion, in my opinion.

For a start I have a feeling that the signing of Benyon on loan wasn't turnip's idea, some what bourne out by the fact, as said my Matt, that Benyon was left on the bench by turnip at Aldershot. And while on the subject of that game, and yet more proof how Matt is right, turnip made a subsitution whilst we were defending a corner, this is just basic football knowledge, so basic that some random dad who hadn't passed his level 1 coaching his local U8's would know never to put on a sub while the other team are waiting to take a corner.

And what happened at that corner, surprise, surprise. Ian Morris (not his fault, just come on) just a yard away stood there, failed to make a challenge as the shots lad planted the ball in the back of our net.

I would suggest the reason why AK didn't want to spend any time training turnip up, was simply after passing coaching badges and gaining experience, with Forest green and Exeter, it was clear turnip doesn't know, and will never know what he is doing. Not only did he fail his blood test. Matt.. He also failed the resit.

[AustrianAndyGull]

Matt that was hilarious!

It just kept on coming and coming at me each time I scrolled down the page!

Very clever stuff, just like a lawyer would take apart somebody's statement to get it to be the exact opposite. I loved it but I do agree with points both of you have made. I do now agree with you regarding some points after reading some of your responses when before I concurred with Wodge.

Almost as long as one of matchday threads that one Matt. :na: