Torquay United V Cheltenham

[yellowforever]

If we're dealing with facts:

- We've had a below par start to the season, both in overall performances and results.
- Despite this, performances in some games haven't been THAT bad. On any other day we would have sent Hartlepool home with a 3-0 loss, some other halves of games have been good but we have been let down by our inconsistency.
- Ball and Hawley does, and will not work as a pairing. Luckily by October time we'll be seeing Ball return and we can go into the market for another forward, or indeed give Ash or Benyon a chance partnering Hawley first (my preferred course of action).
- The balance of midfield is not good. Harding and Mansell cannot play together as they appear devoid of ideas when going forward, changing the system would be an interesting one but I'd prefer Knill to stick to his guns and instead alter the personnel of the midfield, rather than playing fancy shapes in the centre.
- His signings have been good so far - Pearce (good), Chappell (fantastic), Hawley (jury's out but with good service could be handy), Cameron (raw but needs coaching - he's far better than Carayol was when he first joined and look where he is now), Tonge (not bad, probably better than Oastler) are all commendable. Harding so far has been the main disappointment, and Ball looks ok but doesn't suit our system, nor complements Hawley. Unfortunately, those two positions (CM + ST) are important parts of the spine - two handy acquisitions (or the emergence of Craig & Yeoman) would solve it.

Ok not all facts there, but I'd like to think that this has summarised the opinions of the 'realistic middle' of our support - who are neither staunchly defending Knill for an Atkins-esque escape last season, nor baying his blood because we're not top.

Let's reconvene at the start of November and see where we are there, and what Knill has been able to cook up.

[ferrarilover]

If we're dealing with facts:

- We've had a below par start to the season, both in overall performances and results.

Oh good, someone else who doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion. I have about 2 minutes to type this, so I'll be brief. This is an opinion, because no "par" could possibly exist.

- Despite this, performances in some games haven't been THAT bad. On any other day we would have sent Hartlepool home with a 3-0 loss, some other halves of games have been good but we have been let down by our inconsistency.

This is another opinion

- Ball and Hawley does, and will not work as a pairing. Luckily by October time we'll be seeing Ball return and we can go into the market for another forward, or indeed give Ash or Benyon a chance partnering Hawley first (my preferred course of action).

Another opinion

-

The balance of midfield is not good. Harding and Mansell cannot play together as they appear devoid of ideas when going forward, changing the system would be an interesting one but I'd prefer Knill to stick to his guns and instead alter the personnel of the midfield, rather than playing fancy shapes in the centre.

Opinion.


-

His signings have been good so far - Pearce (good), Chappell (fantastic), Hawley (jury's out but with good service could be handy), Cameron (raw but needs coaching - he's far better than Carayol was when he first joined and look where he is now), Tonge (not bad, probably better than Oastler) are all commendable. Harding so far has been the main disappointment, and Ball looks ok but doesn't suit our system, nor complements Hawley. Unfortunately, those two positions (CM + ST) are important parts of the spine - two handy acquisitions (or the emergence of Craig & Yeoman) would solve it.

Do I need to bother?

Ok not any facts there,

Fixed that for you.

Matt.

[PhilGull]

Matt, you keep reminding me of Brass Eye. "Now that is scientific fact — there's no real evidence for it — but it is scientific fact"!

[AustrianAndyGull]

Brass Eye was superb, written by the other SuperNickyWroe Chris Morris who also made his name in TV comedy appearing for many years in Red Dwarf.

[yellowforever]

Rather than taking snippets of my last statement to support your own tirade, I suggest you read the last section of my post more carefully before attempting to deconstruct my argument next time.

"Ok not all facts there, but I'd like to think that this has summarised the opinions of the 'realistic middle' of our support - who are neither staunchly defending Knill for an Atkins-esque escape last season, nor baying his blood because we're not top."

Many fans believing the start of the season has been below par IS a fact, as evidenced by countless posts expressing their distaste at our early season form, I was attempting to summarise the views of the 'run of the mill' Torquay fan at the present situation.

[wodger of awabia]

It is a fact that the clown has been in charge of TUFC for part of last season & all of this, & it is my opinion based on current results and not scoring goals that he has f#cked the team up!

[happytorq]

Oh good, someone else who doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion. I have about 2 minutes to type this, so I'll be brief. This is an opinion, because no "par" could possibly exist.

Also somebody who doesn't know what 'par' is.

If I could play below par every time I played golf, I'd be pretty happy.

[wodger of awabia]

Todger, total unwanted negativity, after that lot (again), I suppose that you won't be following the GULLS any more. I don't think there is anything for you at the Club since you have found so much wrong....Yes, Andy has his occasional rants which raise reasonable points and usually attracts discussion.
Think you should be less emmotive . Is there anything you like about the Club ? Cups of tea ? hot dogs ? pies ?
'It's not big and it's not clever'. :na:

Coley, If you read my post again you will realise that it is only Knill that has incurred my wroth!

Tea....Don't know, drink beer before the game (one pint only otherwise I have to go to the loo before half time )
Hot Dogs......I am a pie man myself!
Pies........OK (average L2 club pies!)
Ground.....Not Villa Park, but a very nice "family club" friendly venue.
Club...As above "family club", no crowd problems & very few arsehol#s.

FOOTNOTE

The above statements are my opinions, I do not wish to present them as facts, & readers are quite at liberty to disagree.

[wodger of awabia]

If we're dealing with facts:

- We've had a below par start to the season, both in overall performances and results.
- Despite this, performances in some games haven't been THAT bad. On any other day we would have sent Hartlepool home with a 3-0 loss, some other halves of games have been good but we have been let down by our inconsistency.
- Ball and Hawley does, and will not work as a pairing. Luckily by October time we'll be seeing Ball return and we can go into the market for another forward, or indeed give Ash or Benyon a chance partnering Hawley first (my preferred course of action).
- The balance of midfield is not good. Harding and Mansell cannot play together as they appear devoid of ideas when going forward, changing the system would be an interesting one but I'd prefer Knill to stick to his guns and instead alter the personnel of the midfield, rather than playing fancy shapes in the centre.
- His signings have been good so far - Pearce (good), Chappell (fantastic), Hawley (jury's out but with good service could be handy), Cameron (raw but needs coaching - he's far better than Carayol was when he first joined and look where he is now), Tonge (not bad, probably better than Oastler) are all commendable. Harding so far has been the main disappointment, and Ball looks ok but doesn't suit our system, nor complements Hawley. Unfortunately, those two positions (CM + ST) are important parts of the spine - two handy acquisitions (or the emergence of Craig & Yeoman) would solve it.

Ok not all facts there, but I'd like to think that this has summarised the opinions of the 'realistic middle' of our support - who are neither staunchly defending Knill for an Atkins-esque escape last season, nor baying his blood because we're not top.

Let's reconvene at the start of November and see where we are there, and what Knill has been able to cook up.

Cock is not spelt cook!

[ferrarilover]

Fixed that for you.

Matt.

[/quote]

Rather than taking snippets of my last statement to support your own tirade, I suggest you read the last section of my post more carefully before attempting to deconstruct my argument next time.

"Ok not all facts there, but I'd like to think that this has summarised the opinions of the 'realistic middle' of our support - who are neither staunchly defending Knill for an Atkins-esque escape last season, nor baying his blood because we're not top."

Many fans believing the start of the season has been below par IS a fact, as evidenced by countless posts expressing their distaste at our early season form, I was attempting to summarise the views of the 'run of the mill' Torquay fan at the present situation.[/quote]

Not a tirade, not even slightly.

It's no good starting a post with "If we're dealing with facts..." then listing a bunch of opinions, then getting upset when someone points out that you haven't actually listed any facts at all. No problem with you listing opinions, just don't start your post with a sentence specifically designed to suggest that what you are posting is fact.

That many fans see the early season form as below par (or, as Haps correctly asserts, above par) is indeed a fact. Thing is, that isn't what you said first time. You said "We've had a below par start to the season...". You've stated that as fact, not as a representative opinion. It's a subtle but vital distinction.

I haven't attempted to deconstruct your argument. To have been able to do that, I'd have needed to be dealing with an argument, which I wasn't, more a list of unsubstantiated opinions.

See my next post for an idea of what facts actually look like.

Matt.

[ferrarilover]

Ok, a look at the first 7 league games of each of the last 5 seasons (including this one and since we returned to L2) shows us the following numbers:

2013/14: P7, W1, D3, L3, F6, A11, GD-5, Pts 6

2012/13: P7, W2, D4, L1, F8, A5, GD+3, Pts 10

2011/12: P7, W3, D3, L1, F10, A7, GD+3, Pts 12

2010/11: P7, W4, D2, L1, F10, A3, GD+7 Pts 15

2009/12: P7, W2, D0, L5, F9, A12, GD-3, Pts 6

We see then that 2010/11 (second year under Buckle) gained us the most points and the best goal difference from our opening 7 games. We see that this season has produced joint fewest points and the worst goal difference. So, relatively, a poor start. However, these numbers alone do not represent the reality of football.

If we apply the Ferrarilover Scale to the opposition we have faced in those 7 games, we see the following:

2013/14 is rated at 67%

2012/13 at 67%

2011/12 at 46%

2010/11 at 56%

2009/10 at 72%

Thus, 2009/10, when we gained joint fewest points (joint with this year) and had the second worst goal difference (ahead only of this year), we had the hardest start. This year's start was the joint second toughest, and the two years where we scored a good number of points, we had relatively simple starts (certainly much more simple than we have enjoyed this year). For clarity, the hardest possible start would have been 100% and the simplest just 19%. The average start would be 57%. So, we can say that this year we have enjoyed a tougher than usual and tougher than average opening run of fixtures.

Looking ahead to the next 7 games, we see that this year, we face teams with a FS score of 58% (although, for reasons of promotion and relegation, this number might not be truly representative). These matches should be slightly more fruitful than the last 7, but not necessarily much.

Knill has been dealt a baptism of pointy, fiery things. To write off him and his team already has always been madness, just now it is madness for an additional reason.

Matt.

[DevonYellow]

In actual fact(!) it is perfectly acceptable to use the phrase "below par" when giving an opinion of our level of achievement this season.

Par has a few meanings one of which is "the number of golf strokes considered necessary to complete a hole or course", this is obviously not the use intended in this thread.

Another meaning is "an amount or level considered to be average; a standard" and quite obviously this is the context intended.

The fact remains it was an opinion but that's already been covered!

[Hubert Parry]

Hello again Gulls. To the uninitiated, I am a Cheltenham fan.

I am sorry to offend, but the original post in this thread is riddled with errors, so I would read it with scepticism. It is too long for me to correct everything, but McGlashan is not experienced, Elliott is not a midfielder (and would not form a good partnership with Mansell), Wilson has only played one game, we don't have a Richardson, and Cureton has only scored one goal because he was stretchered off after 20 minutes of the season.

In short, we have been dire defensively. There is no reason why this should be the case (having had the second best record in the league last season), but it just is. Unlike last season, we seem to be able to score a fair few - so something has worked. I wouldn't read too much into our position just yet, and the expectation is for us to challenge at the top end. Whether we will or not will depend on how well we can sort out the defence - hopefully the arrival of Dave Kevan has first team coach will be the difference.

As for our team - it is difficult to say, but I reckon the following:

Brown

Lowe Wilson Elliott Jombati

McGlashan Penn Noble Richards

Harrison Gornell

Cureton could start, but I doubt it.

I think we will lose to you this weekend. 3-1. Again, I have no rational reason for this, but it has been an irrational start to the season.

[brucie]

In all fairness I don't think you will be challenging with the team you have (neither will we beat you three one).
Cureton is too old and too slow. He is a good goalscorer but Exeter have had the best of him thats for sure.
Its not that irrational really - your team isn't very good this year and neither is ours.

[ferrarilover]

In terms of McGlashan, it depends what you mean by "experienced". Of course, I'm not going to preach to the Bishop here, but 125 Football League appearances hardly ranks him among the novices, as far as I'm concerned.
I see now that you have the worst defensive record in the division. That, if nothing else, should give us at least a glimmer of hope. We won't get three, we simply don't take enough of our chances to score three. We create plenty, but like Plymouth last year and Northampton this, we waste them endlessly.
This might well be a 1-1 draw in the end, unless Nico plays, in which case there is every chance you'll win 14-0.

Matt.