Knill out

[yeovilgull]

If Knill was to go then how about Paul Sturrock, may be affordable, west country links and good track record at this level (until someone dissects it and proves me wrong!). Not sure of his current health situation but maybe a short term option with a young inexperienced no2 (Hargreaves? or similar) with the aim of teaching them the ropes and eventually taking over when PS retires.

[AustrianAndyGull]

Ling was way off the radar when he came to us and as for Knill, well pretty much the same so I reckon the interim boss should Knill be dismissed will be Esther Rantzen.

[Bobbytanz]

Knill out ??? reality bites here, he ain't going to walk, why should he, as he is in the marketplace where only 92 jobs exist !!

The board won't push him either as we haven't the cash so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place !!

I just found it amusing yesterday at the antics of Paul Cook, up and down like a yo yo, shouting instructions and then bless his cottons doing pitch repairs !!! Whilst our boss just stood there, slurping a isotonic drink and telling then to hurry up !!! Pathetic really !!!

[hector]

If Knill was to go then how about Paul Sturrock, may be affordable, west country links and good track record at this level (until someone dissects it and proves me wrong!). Not sure of his current health situation but maybe a short term option with a young inexperienced no2 (Hargreaves? or similar) with the aim of teaching them the ropes and eventually taking over when PS retires.

I think that is a decent suggestion. Sturrock did a good job at Southend and even as a short term measure, he would do a better job than Knill.

[lemlinspire]

Knill out ??? reality bites here, he ain't going to walk, why should he, as he is in the marketplace where only 92 jobs exist !!

The board won't push him either as we haven't the cash so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place !!

I just found it amusing yesterday at the antics of Paul Cook, up and down like a yo yo, shouting instructions and then bless his cottons doing pitch repairs !!! Whilst our boss just stood there, slurping a isotonic drink and telling then to hurry up !!! Pathetic really !!!

Yes mate we noticed that difference. Our manager kicks every ball with the team. Never stops shouting instuctions. Hence his always rough voice. Your manager seemed less involved than yiur fans.

We had a manager like that . Sheriden. And I hated it. I want my teams manager to throw water bottles and tell the linesmsn he is a joke. Football is passion and that must come from the manager.

Hope you turn it around

[AustrianAndyGull]

Knill out ??? reality bites here, he ain't going to walk, why should he, as he is in the marketplace where only 92 jobs exist !!

The board won't push him either as we haven't the cash so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place !!

I just found it amusing yesterday at the antics of Paul Cook, up and down like a yo yo, shouting instructions and then bless his cottons doing pitch repairs !!! Whilst our boss just stood there, slurping a isotonic drink and telling then to hurry up !!! Pathetic really !!!

I did actually say look out for the comparisons between the two on the touchline before the game because I knew and i'm so great. :~D

In fact I gave Knill lots of help on here and if he'd have read it we might have got a point.

I am going to apply to be our new manager, sod it why not?

No, I am.

[Plymouth Gull]

How does Knill's record stand up against our previous managers? I've done some research, and here it is:

I've gone back to the days of Leroy, so here we go (and these figures include all competitions).

Leroy Rosenior: P184 W58 D61 L65 - 32% win ratio. It's perhaps worth noting that this goes up to 34% if we take out the League One campaign, in which he had a 24% win ratio. I feel this ratio was damaged by the start of 2005/06, where he won just 6 out of 35, after relegation from L1.

John Cornforth: P12 W4 D3 L5 - 33% win ratio. Short term job, despite having a fairly high win %, we were in deep trouble with him here.

Ian Atkins: P29 W9 D8 L12 - 31% win ratio. Another short term thing. Kept us up in 2006 with the great escape, winning 4 of 6. Only managed 5 wins in 06/07, and left when Chris Roberts started wringing the club dry.

Lubos Kubik: P15 W2 D5 L8 - 13% win ratio. Disastrous appointment all round really. The less said the better.

Keith Curle: P15 W2 D4 L9 - 13% win ratio. Couldn't do anything to stop the inevitable. Hard to judge him much considering the situation we were in.

Paul Buckle: P226 W104 D59 L63 - 46% win ratio. By far the longest-serving manager of the last decade or so. His record came in at nearly practically a win in every other game, which is pretty good over 4 years. Further research shows that he had a 55% win ratio while we were outside the Football League, and just a 35% win ratio in League 2.

Martin Ling: P81 W32 D23 L26 - 40% win ratio. Fascinating to note Ling has the highest win % of all of these managers at League 2 level. Take out the cups and this would have probably have been even better!

Shaun Taylor: P6 W1 D0 L5 - 16% win ratio . Caretaker job but it's safe to say that he was out of his comfort zone.

Alan Knill: P33 W7 D10 L16 - 21% win ratio. 50% less than the previous incumbent..

Here's the win% order then, at L2 level:

Martin Ling - 40%
Paul Buckle - 35%
Leroy Rosenior - 34%
John Cornforth - 33%
Ian Atkins - 31%
Alan Knill - 21%
Shaun Taylor - 16%
Lubos Kubik - 13%
Keith Curle - 13%

I know it's all not really relevant, but seeing that Knill's is so low compared to the other longer term managers is a concern, not going to lie. Didn't expect there to be such a gap.

[hector]

How does Knill's record stand up against our previous managers? I've done some research, and here it is:

I've gone back to the days of Leroy, so here we go (and these figures include all competitions).

Leroy Rosenior: P184 W58 D61 L65 - 32% win ratio. It's perhaps worth noting that this goes up to 34% if we take out the League One campaign, in which he had a 24% win ratio. I feel this ratio was damaged by the start of 2005/06, where he won just 6 out of 35, after relegation from L1.

John Cornforth: P12 W4 D3 L5 - 33% win ratio. Short term job, despite having a fairly high win %, we were in deep trouble with him here.

Ian Atkins: P29 W9 D8 L12 - 31% win ratio. Another short term thing. Kept us up in 2006 with the great escape, winning 4 of 6. Only managed 5 wins in 06/07, and left when Chris Roberts started wringing the club dry.

Lubos Kubik: P15 W2 D5 L8 - 13% win ratio. Disastrous appointment all round really. The less said the better.

Keith Curle: P15 W2 D4 L9 - 13% win ratio. Couldn't do anything to stop the inevitable. Hard to judge him much considering the situation we were in.

Paul Buckle: P226 W104 D59 L63 - 46% win ratio. By far the longest-serving manager of the last decade or so. His record came in at nearly practically a win in every other game, which is pretty good over 4 years. Further research shows that he had a 55% win ratio while we were outside the Football League, and just a 35% win ratio in League 2.

Martin Ling: P81 W32 D23 L26 - 40% win ratio. Fascinating to note Ling has the highest win % of all of these managers at League 2 level. Take out the cups and this would have probably have been even better!

Shaun Taylor: P6 W1 D0 L5 - 16% win ratio . Caretaker job but it's safe to say that he was out of his comfort zone.

Alan Knill: P33 W7 D10 L16 - 21% win ratio. 50% less than the previous incumbent..

Here's the win% order then, at L2 level:

Martin Ling - 40%
Paul Buckle - 35%
Leroy Rosenior - 34%
John Cornforth - 33%
Ian Atkins - 31%
Alan Knill - 21%
Shaun Taylor - 16%
Lubos Kubik - 13%
Keith Curle - 13%

I know it's all not really relevant, but seeing that Knill's is so low compared to the other longer term managers is a concern, not going to lie. Didn't expect there to be such a gap.

Fascinating post, Nick.

What surprises me here is just how 'good' John Cornforth's record was. But I think with him, it was a bit of a dead cat bounce, effect, as he had a reasonable start and was removed so Ian Atkins could take over. It would be interesrting to know what Ian Atkins record was up until Roberts came. Until that point Atkins was doing a good job. Knill's position says it all really.

[Plymouth Gull]

Before Roberts came, Atkins had won 8 out of 20 (again including the 4 wins from 6 at the end of 05/06), giving him a 40% win percentage, joint with Ling.

[hector]

How does Knill's record stand up against our previous managers? I've done some research, and here it is:

I've gone back to the days of Leroy, so here we go (and these figures include all competitions).

Leroy Rosenior: P184 W58 D61 L65 - 32% win ratio. It's perhaps worth noting that this goes up to 34% if we take out the League One campaign, in which he had a 24% win ratio. I feel this ratio was damaged by the start of 2005/06, where he won just 6 out of 35, after relegation from L1.

John Cornforth: P12 W4 D3 L5 - 33% win ratio. Short term job, despite having a fairly high win %, we were in deep trouble with him here.

Ian Atkins: P29 W9 D8 L12 - 31% win ratio. Another short term thing. Kept us up in 2006 with the great escape, winning 4 of 6. Only managed 5 wins in 06/07, and left when Chris Roberts started wringing the club dry.

Lubos Kubik: P15 W2 D5 L8 - 13% win ratio. Disastrous appointment all round really. The less said the better.

Keith Curle: P15 W2 D4 L9 - 13% win ratio. Couldn't do anything to stop the inevitable. Hard to judge him much considering the situation we were in.

Paul Buckle: P226 W104 D59 L63 - 46% win ratio. By far the longest-serving manager of the last decade or so. His record came in at nearly practically a win in every other game, which is pretty good over 4 years. Further research shows that he had a 55% win ratio while we were outside the Football League, and just a 35% win ratio in League 2.

Martin Ling: P81 W32 D23 L26 - 40% win ratio. Fascinating to note Ling has the highest win % of all of these managers at League 2 level. Take out the cups and this would have probably have been even better!

Shaun Taylor: P6 W1 D0 L5 - 16% win ratio . Caretaker job but it's safe to say that he was out of his comfort zone.

Alan Knill: P33 W7 D10 L16 - 21% win ratio. 50% less than the previous incumbent..

Here's the win% order then, at L2 level:

Martin Ling - 40%
Paul Buckle - 35%
Leroy Rosenior - 34%
John Cornforth - 33%
Ian Atkins - 31%
Alan Knill - 21%
Shaun Taylor - 16%
Lubos Kubik - 13%
Keith Curle - 13%

I know it's all not really relevant, but seeing that Knill's is so low compared to the other longer term managers is a concern, not going to lie. Didn't expect there to be such a gap.

I hope you don't mind me borrowing your data, Nick. I have looked at what the records would mean if translated into points and how many points per game that would equal. I know some of these are cup games and do not translate into actual points but I did it that way because some managers may not lose many, even if they don't win many so I sometimes if counting wins only is a little unfair. As a manager playing 100 games might win 20 but lose 80. While another playing 100 games might win 19, draw 70 and only lose 1 but having the same win percentage would obviously not reflect the records as well.

I also realise that Rosenior's record compares unfairly with Buckle's but he did have 46 games at level two leagues higher than Buckle's and I couldn't be bothered to work out simply League 2 data on its own.

As it happens, using points per game, it doesn't turn out too differently to the win % way.

Leroy Rosenior: P184 W58 D61 L65 - 32% win ratio & 1.28 PPG.

John Cornforth: P12 W4 D3 L5 - 33% win ratio & 1.25 PPG.

Ian Atkins: P29 W9 D8 L12 - 31% win ratio & 1.21 PPG.

Lubos Kubik: P15 W2 D5 L8 - 13% win ratio & 0.73 PPG.

Keith Curle: P15 W2 D4 L9 - 13% win ratio & 0.67 PPG.

Paul Buckle: P226 W104 D59 L63 - 46% win ratio & 1.64 PPG.

Martin Ling: P81 W32 D23 L26 - 40% win ratio & 1.47 PPG.

Shaun Taylor: P6 W1 D0 L5 - 16% win ratio & 0.5 PPG.

Alan Knill: P33 W7 D10 L16 - 21% win ratio & 0.94 PPG.

1. Buckle 1.64
2. Ling 1.47
3. Rosenior 1.28
4. Cornforth 1.25
5. Atkins 1.21
6. Knill 0.94
7. Kubik 0.73
8. Curle 0.67
9. Taylor 0.5

This way of looking at it, doesn't help the case for Alan Knill with his record challenging Kubik's for ineptness. But essentially, over 33 games, Knill cannot even muster a point per game. His record over 33 games, translated into an actual season, would see us probably cast adrfit, miles at the bottom of the league with 21 points and 13 games left, relegated by March, no doubt.

Many industries use data to track performance and be held accountable. Except at TUFC, it would seem.

[hector]

Before Roberts came, Atkins had won 8 out of 20 (again including the 4 wins from 6 at the end of 05/06), giving him a 40% win percentage, joint with Ling.

Thanks for looking that up. I do seem to remember we were in the play-off zone at the start of that season and didn't lose many of our early games.

[Gullscorer]

When the club sacked Martin Ling, it did so ostensibly for 'football reasons', while apparently neglecting to take into account that the club's poor league position last season was due mainly if not entirely to Ling's health problems. Alan Knill's record since he took over now appears to be much worse than Ling's last season, even taking into account the injuries suffered this season and Knill's available budget, and Knill has no 'poor health' excuses.

The only reason for Knill's continued tenure of the manager's job seems to be that the club cannot afford to let him go. But if things go on as they are, the club will need to consider whether the present situation is ultimately viable, whether it's going to cost more in the long term to keep him than to sack him. The club must then restructure it's finances accordingly, and take decisive action. It will need to do this before the end of the year, if not sooner, if the team does not begin to pick up points very quickly. It's all about results, every manager knows this. It's always a hard decision for a club to take and also hard on the manager, but the club's future in the League, possibly the future of the club itself as a fully professional outfit, may depend upon it.

I suggest that if December's games do not show a substantial improvement in performance and results, which is still not impossible, surely there can only be one outcome.

[brucie]

December will be far too late - Knill cannot surely be given another six or seven games to sort this out (unless he can pull off four points out the next two).

[tomogull]

December will be far too late - Knill cannot surely be given another six or seven games to sort this out (unless he can pull off four points out the next two).

I am one of those who feels Knill should be given to the end of the year to get us out of the mess he has got us into but after three more defeats in a row where even Matt hasn't come on here and said we were the better team and robbed by biased match officials. I am leaning more towards Brucie's view that if we don't get a win out of the next two games, time is up. It would be different if we could see some signs of improvement but the Rochdale and Chesterfield games were about as poor as anything we've seen. Reports of the Accrington game were more positive so for Knill's sake, and the club's future, let's hope it was a step forward.

As a totally hair-brained idea, what about Guy Branston's name going into the hat to succeed Knill if he goes? I think Branno was taking his coaching badges and he is a leader and a winner as well as a larger than life character. I think he could do well in management but probably a bit too soon for him yet.

[wodger of awabia]

December will be far too late - Knill cannot surely be given another six or seven games to sort this out (unless he can pull off four points out the next two).

Yes, we must give the new manager as many games as possible to get us out of the mess that Knill has caused.