False rape/abuse accusations

[happytorq]

Such injustices against men are now commonplace in the USA, Canada, Sweden and other countries.

I've worked in the USA for over 6 years now, and I've never seen any sort of injustice against them. I've not heard about it anywhere else either, and I work in the most litigious state in the country (or at least the 2nd, behind possible California). Maybe it happens, but 'commonplace' would be inaccurate.

[Gullscorer]

Perhaps I should have said 'widespread', which it is. The new laws/rules are being applied at universities/colleges all over the USA, and injustices are happening. Perhaps they are so commonplace that they don't make the news! So what degree of injustice is acceptable? I would say one case is one too many. And this new regime will surely cause many more, which is why so many people and organisations are protesting, as this article illustrates: http://sreaves32.wordpress.com/2013/06/ ... ee-speech/

[Gullscorer]

Please, don't tell me this is the way things are supposed to work . . .

The photograph of a completely innocent man was splattered across the June 24th edition of the Manchester Evening News. It said police were looking for him in connection with an alleged rape: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... on-4706346

Only the Manchester Evening News didn't act like it was just an allegation. The newspaper wrote the following:

The victim, a 24-year-old woman, was raped by a man as they walked through Hurst Cemetery off King’s Road on Saturday, June 22. She had previously met him a short time before the offence took place.

The offender is described as white, about 34 years old, 5ft 8in tall, of medium to chubby build with short blonde hair. He had stubble on his face and a tattoo of a swallow on his left hand."

Detective Sergeant Gareth Jenkins, said: “The offender has subjected her to a serious and horrific sexual assault in an isolated cemetery, only stopping when disturbed by a passer by. We have been supporting the victim, who is clearly distressed, as best as we can since this happened."

Sounds like both the police and the newspaper knew that a rape occurred, didn't it? Did the newspaper do its own independent investigation, or was it just acting as stenographer for the police?

The hapless "offender" turned himself in and was quickly arrested. He lived under a cloud of suspicion for months, until now. The police have finally determined it never happened. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ry-6362538

Detective Constable Laura Orton said: “We are now confident that no crime has occurred . . . ."

Really, Detective Orton? No crime? What about false reporting of rape?

Does anyone really think this is the way things are "supposed" to work?

An innocent man is arrested and found himself under a cloud of suspicion for months based on nothing more than the word of the accuser, and the newspaper and the police acting as if a rape had definitely occurred?

The Manchester Police and the Manchester Evening News should do their jobs without rushing to judgment, without convicting innocent men in the court of last resort, the court of public opinion.

They can treat allegations seriously without assuming the accuser was a "victim," that the accused was an "offender," and that "a serious and horrific sexual assault" definitely occurred before they know if it did.

The Manchester Evening News and the Manchester Police failed the public and unnecessarily hurt an innocent man. And we haven't even talked about the architect of this injustice, the accuser. If there is a reasonable basis to believe she lied, she needs to be charged, convicted, and given a custodial sentence of significant length.

Article by COTWA: http://www.cotwa.info/

[ferrarilover]

Scorer, I'm going to save you a lot of heartache.

People make mistakes. People lie, people cheat, people deceive. The press basically make things up as they go. It's nothing to do with an anti male agenda. No one is out to get you because you have a penis. This is just how the world works. Men lie, women lie, hermaphrodites lie. As Dr House says: everybody lies.

Matt.

[Gullscorer]

Scorer, I'm going to save you a lot of heartache.
People make mistakes. People lie, people cheat, people deceive. The press basically make things up as they go. It's nothing to do with an anti male agenda. No one is out to get you because you have a penis. This is just how the world works. Men lie, women lie, hermaphrodites lie. As Dr House says: everybody lies.
Matt.

So are you implying we should just let it happen, bury our heads in the sand and do and say nothing? This is not about a gender agenda. It's about fairness, justice, and what kind of society should we be living in rather than acquiescing with the one we have. It just so happens that it is gender politics which has been causing more damage to society and the law than anything else in recent years. Try attending a few Family Court hearings to see what I mean..

[ferrarilover]

People don't get away with it, rapists are convicted, those who are shown definitively to have cried rape are also convicted and the very large middle ground is often dealt with by finding both parties not guilty of any wrongdoing.

In an ideal world, no one would lie, but that's not how it is. Some rapists get away with it. Some who cry rape get away with it. A very, very few innocents from both camps are found guilty. That's life, it's imperfect. The law makes the best decisions it can based on the evidence available to it. If, as is often the case in family courts, this favours women, then so be it. If you're not stupid enough to end up in Court in the first place, you've nothing to worry about.

Matt.

[Gullscorer]

Many women have cried rape knowing they can do so with impunity. Those who made false accusations of rape have often got away with a mere slap on the wrist or a little counselling, without even going to court, because they've been described as 'vulnerable' or have been through hard times or mixed with the wrong crowd. No such excuses for most young men who go off the rails. Fortunately we are beginning to see more false accusers brought to task, if only because there are more false accusations these days.

Most people involved in law certainly do their best, and although there are bad laws, as there are bad politicians, stupidity is not yet a crime. And a mere accusation should not, in the absence of corroborating evidence, be sufficient to result in a conviction. Yet this is what some feminist groups are advocating, and this, in the example given earlier, is what the Manchester Police and the Manchester Evening News (MEN!) seem to have initially accepted: that an accusation was made, so she is automatically assumed to be a rape victim, and he is obviously a guilty rapist, so he is put through hell.

Now it turns out that the alleged crime never happened. This guy should sue her, the police, and the newspaper, for all he can get.

[ferrarilover]

The evidence initially suggested that a rape had been committed, the police acted precisely as they should, they investigated thoroughly. As the insisting progressed it became clear that the information upon which they acted was erroneous and they, once again, acted as they should in dropping the investigation against the chap and pursued the villainous woman.

Lockin' 'em up isn't always the answer. A girl falling into bed with strangers then crying rape sounds likely to be suffering from a condition which would benefit from treatment, rather than simple incarceration.

The papers do need to take more care, but then, we, as the paper reading public, should be both more sceptical about what is reported and more exacting in our standards.

Unfortunately, rape is an horrific experience for genuine victims. This necessitates that, in dealing with any alleged victim, the authorities must tread extremely lightly. An approach of aggressive questioning in order to weed out the liars will only have the effect of further reducing the already disgustingly low reporting and conviction rates.

There are plenty of evil men who lie and cheat on order to abuse the good nature of the law. It's not a gender thing, it's a people thing. Some people are scum, some are ill, some are desperate.

Matt.

[Gullscorer]

Matt I actually agree with the points you make, but you appear to have overlooked what I regard as the main issue in this case, which is that, at a time when the Attorney General is to publish guidance on Twitter to help prevent social media users from committing contempt of court when commenting on legal cases, everyone seems to ignore the fact that Manchester Police went much further than simply investigating a suspect in an alleged rape case. From the outset they treated the complainant as a victim and the suspect as if he were already a convicted rapist, and the Manchester Evening News did the same. She remained anonymous, and will do so at least until such time as she is convicted of perverting the course of justice (which is by no means certain; she is as entitled to due process in the judicial system as the man she accused), whilst his face and name was fully publicised and his reputation was severely damaged and may never be fully restored. How prejudicial would all that have been to his case if it had gone to court?

But he is one of the more fortunate ones. Many in his situation - accused but innocent - have suffered far worse fates: finding themselves wrongly convicted and in jail, losing careers, homes, and families, with marriages destroyed, or even being murdered by mobs or committing suicide. Any woman claiming to be the victim of rape has a right to be taken seriously but, in the absence of any corroborating evidence, not necessarily to be believed. One of the basic principles of British Justice is that an accused man is presumed innocent until he has been proven guilty. There are those who would take away this right in such cases, so that the accusation would be all the proof required. Be in no doubt that there are politicians who would pander to the demands of such extremists. This is already beginning to happen in North America. To take even one step down such a path would be a dangerous move and would not be in the interests of justice, nor of society.

One more thing: you appear to have a generous view of young women who cry rape, and of their motives, which would be admirable were it not for the fact that the evidence suggests that far too many of their false rape claims arise out of selfish vindictiveness and the most juvenile of reasons. Take a look at the COTWA website and the links I have posted on this forum to reports of court cases involving false rape accusers, and reliable studies which debunk feminist claims as to the extent of false rape accusations and indeed the number of actual rapes which occur in society. Search and research; seek and find the truth..

False rape allegations are crimes both against innocent accused men (who are the real victims in such cases) and against genuine rape victims. I'm sure you would agree with that.. Possibly..

[Dave]

Can I ask you a question Gullscorer. Have you ever mainly as an adult, found yourself in a position where by you have seen something or know something is happening that's wrong, maybe at work or elsewhere, and you haven't spoken out because you're concerned or maybe even scared of the consequences, or what might happen to you, if you did speak out. If you chose to answer, answer honestly.

[ferrarilover]

Unfortunately, that's how the police must act. In all other crime, there is a body, or a black eye, or a smashed window. Here, with rape, there is not only no body, they're is an act committed which, in ordinary circumstances, is perfectly legal.
This presents a unique problem for the police. They must proceed as though the girl is telling the truth, otherwise no rape (real or imagined) will ever be investigsted and it will become, essentially, legal.

In the case mentioned, the girl gave a very accurate description of her attacker and the police arrested a man fitting that description.


What alternative do the police have? You must analogise a woman sitting in a police station telling officers that she has been raped with the discovery of a dead body or a smashed window. It must be treated as absolute evidence that some crime, in all likelihood, has been committed. To act otherwise would be akin to treating the discovery of any body automatically as suicide.

You're a big fan (quite rightly) of innocent until proven guilty. Well, lets extend that to the woman, shall we. She is innocent of lying about rape until it is proven that she has.

It will be imperfect, it will lead to false reporting and it will seem unfair.

If a body is found and, clutched in his cold, dead fingers is a scrap of paper, upon which is written, "I was murdered by a chubby blonde man with stubble and a swallow tattoo on his hand", it is only natural and proper that the police should arrest a man fitting that description.
That it later transpires to have been a suicide and the note a malicious fabrication is indeed unfortunate, bit certainly should not dictate police policy in dealing with future killings.

North America is an odd land, operating under the illusion of freedom because they have that Godforsaken Constitution. Over here, we have proper law and process which will make things like the COTWA 'Dear Colleague' letter's premise of '**** it, just bang up all the blokes, they're probably guilty' entirely unenforceable.

Matt.

[Gullscorer]

Okay Forever, yes, there were four such occasions during my long career, on one of which I decided not to speak out regarding a couple of individuals, after weighing the pros and cons, as I felt the matter would right itself without my intervention, which it did after a fashion. The other three involved changes which I felt were necessary to the general workplace culture, to union attitudes, and to management practices. It is not appropriate for me give details here, but I did speak out about these, even after being advised not to rock the boat, and, yes, there were consequences for me personally, fortunately nothing serious.

I can understand people not speaking out in other situations which may be more serious with perhaps even their jobs or careers at stake. I've heard horror stories, for example, from academia, where a few individuals have expressed opinions speaking out against the prevailing ideological consensus, in an area of society where you would think there should be a free range of expression and thought, of argument and debate, and objective analysis of research. Sadly, in certain disciplines this is no longer the case.

Fortunately there will always be people of principle and courage who are prepared to stand up for what they believe is right and good, regardless of the consequences. I certainly don't claim to be among their number; we must each do what we feel able to do.

[Gullscorer]

Matt I understand what you're saying, but, perhaps because I'm somewhat older than you, I no longer feel as optimistic and positive about the world as you seem to be, and maybe I approach these things with a more jaundiced and cynical eye. Rape is a more intimate and personally invasive crime than any other, and I really do feel for any woman (or man) who is a victim of it. But, compared with rape, how many times, for example, do we hear people falsely claim (whether knowingly or mistakenly) 'I have been defrauded' or 'George Bloggs burgled my house today'? And how often do we see the suspects in such cases publicised and vilified in the media before even being charged by the police. It happened in at least a couple of high-profile murder cases, as I remember, one in Wales and one in London, where the suspects were put through hell by police and even more so by the press without being charged and were subsequently found to be innocent. But it happens far more often in rape cases and the consequences for the innocent accused can be life-changing.

This is not the police simply doing what they must do in an investigation; they are exceeding their duties if they accept that an alleged rape is a fact in the way that a dead body or a broken window is a fact. As I said earlier, a woman claiming to have been raped has a right to be taken seriously. But an allegation is not proof of a crime, and an accusation is not proof of criminality. And so it is completely irresponsible for the police and the press to immediately regard a complainant in an alleged rape case as an actual victim in the absence of any corroborating evidence, and to automatically treat and publicise a suspect or an accused man as if he were already the convicted criminal.

[Dave]

Many thanks for answering my question Gullscorer, and I must point out, my intention was not to make you look bad in any way. I think you clearly know what I was driving at, there is no balance to this thread, it constantly refers to false accusations, being scared in some cases terrified of the consequences of speaking out is a very, very good reason behind why some historical accusations are only coming to light now, a very good reason why so many genuine cases of rape and abuse are never even reported let alone end up in a charge being brought.

You don't have to be a lawyer or cop to know particularly rape is one of the single most difficult crimes to prove, as you and we all know it hinges on one word 'consent' did the woman or in fact man give their consent, unless you have filmed it or have an independent witness (unless strange, why would you) How do you prove it one way or another., unless the crime was committed in public of course.

That leads me on to my next point, just because a charge was not brought or a not guilty verdict returned it doesn't mean to say the accusation was false or malicious, yes malicious reporting does happen, police must act quickly to obtain evidence in case the accusation is indeed true, however why some people think they can dupe highly trained police officers is beyond me, yes the odd does slip through the net , but in most cases the police will see through it very quickly.

[Gullscorer]

Yes Forever I agree with your points, but I would add that:
(1) just because a charge was not brought or a not guilty verdict returned, it doesn't mean to say the accused was actually really guilty but got away with it, as some would have us believe;
(2) the balance in this or any other thread depends upon the posts that are contributed and, given that this thread is about false accusations, the posts in it have looked at the topic from a number of angles, so I would certainly not agree that this thread is unbalanced as compared with any other thread;
(3) alleged rapes may indeed be difficult to prove, as would any other crime in the absence of substantiating evidence, especially rapes/crimes alleged to have occurred years before, but the abiding principles of evidence and due process in the judicial system, of assumed innocence until guilt is proved, must remain if we are not to end up with an administration of justice such as that seen in the Salem Witch Trials;
(4) I wish I could share your confidence in the police and the judiciary, highly trained as they are, and doubtless most of them do their very best in difficult circumstances; but if they ever receive training based on feminist ideology and gender politics, God help us all..!!
http://antimisandry.com/articles/lawyer ... c-279.html
http://www.cotwa.info/2013/12/emily-baz ... -stop.html