The Blame Game

[Fonda]

My post very obviously wasn't aimed at Hector's mum. It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. It wasn't a criticism of the non-football loving public - merely an acknowledgement that attendances like ours, will catch up with you. If there isn't the requisite levels of interest, the income won't be high enough to compete. And whilst people do want 'entertainment' for their money, what comes first? If people don't keep attending, the money going into the club decreases, and the quality drops. What we've needed is for the 'fair-weather' supporters to show a little more patience. If hundreds use the excuse that the team isn't good enough to not go, it'll simply never get better!

[brucie]

Rubbish - it isn't the fans fault at all. People just won't turn up to watch this dross week in week out. If we were challenging for promotion the crowds would probably be a third bigger. Of course we are never going to attract big crowds but we should be perfectly capable of getting in crowds of 3000.
The reason we are getting half that against Burton is because we are useless, and lose practically all our home games.
We have been on a downward slide for god knows how long really. Blimey we cannot even win a cup game of any description.
Even when Ling was here we were getting knocked out by a bunch of non league no hopers.
What I don't accept though is pound for pound our players are any worse than the likes of Exeter,Mansfield,Accrington etc etc.
Its more that we havn't addressed the problems in certain positions ie left back,striker etc.

[Scott Brehaut]

I've said pretty much everything I want to day on other threads but thought I would say this here as it's as good a place as any.

How, in the name of all that is good and holy, is anybody defending Alan Knill.

Those interested in stats would probably be interested to note that his win rate at our club for his entire time was, wait for it, a whole 18.52%!!!!

Yep, 18.52% - yet people are still finding ways to defend him.

He signed strikers that can't score, pacy wingers that can't cross, made substitutions when all was already lost, put out a team against our two neighbours and allowed us to be rogered senseless and made us worse off than we were when we took over.

He was/is a terrible manager - one can forgive him last season as it wasn't "his" team, but this season it is and we are worse off.

Nope, no defending from me - he was worse than useless and is, almost, wholly to blame for us going down this season.

[Fonda]

Rubbish - it isn't the fans fault at all. People just won't turn up to watch this dross week in week out. If we were challenging for promotion the crowds would probably be a third bigger. Of course we are never going to attract big crowds but we should be perfectly capable of getting in crowds of 3000.
The reason we are getting half that against Burton is because we are useless, and lose practically all our home games.
We have been on a downward slide for god knows how long really. Blimey we cannot even win a cup game of any description.
Even when Ling was here we were getting knocked out by a bunch of non league no hopers.
What I don't accept though is pound for pound our players are any worse than the likes of Exeter,Mansfield,Accrington etc etc.
Its more that we havn't addressed the problems in certain positions ie left back,striker etc.

So where does the money come from to create a team that is good to watch Brucie? Do you suppose Thea's pot of cash is bottomless? Without fans going through the turnstiles, the money simply isn't there to make the team better!

[Fonda]

I've said pretty much everything I want to day on other threads but thought I would say this here as it's as good a place as any.

How, in the name of all that is good and holy, is anybody defending Alan Knill.

Those interested in stats would probably be interested to note that his win rate at our club for his entire time was, wait for it, a whole 18.52%!!!!

Yep, 18.52% - yet people are still finding ways to defend him.

He signed strikers that can't score, pacy wingers that can't cross, made substitutions when all was already lost, put out a team against our two neighbours and allowed us to be rogered senseless and made us worse off than we were when we took over.

He was/is a terrible manager - one can forgive him last season as it wasn't "his" team, but this season it is and we are worse off.

Nope, no defending from me - he was worse than useless and is, almost, wholly to blame for us going down this season.

I see the entire point of this thread is lost. Yes, Knill has to bear some blame, but so do others (including the Sainted Greavsie!) There is nothing to be gained by arguing about who is most to blame. It's not a competition.

[Bomber]

Martyn Lings side has been destroyed and the players brought in have not been up to it. If Martyn had been in good health I don't think we would be in this position. In other words bad decisions have been made on choice of players and managers. I don't think Knill saved us last season and was dissapointed that Taylor was not able to guide us whilst Ling was ill as this was Lings own fault as you don't choose an assirtant who is not able to take over in an emergency situation.

I would probably go as far to say that Chris Brass' influence on our survival last year shouldn't be underestimated. If you can remember when it was announced that he would be returning to Bury as assistant to Dave Flitcroft, in the Herald Express it was said that Alan Knill did most of the coaching whilst Brass looked after the organisational side of things, which is slightly different to conventional management method.

Also, if you at our results last season after Brass arrived to assist Knill you will notice an upturn in our fortunes.

If you look at Knill's signings, most of them haven't been that bad- apart from Karl Hawley-who has struggled to reach Rene Howe's goal scoring return last season of 16- and possibly Benyon, and the loan signings have generally been hit and miss, with the notable exceptions of O'Connor, McCallum and Marquis.

The continued exclusion of Nathan Craig remains a mystery as he seemed to be showing some promise under Martin Ling.

[Scott Brehaut]

This is laughable, you wanted Taylor to be in charge till the end of that season!?

Deluded.

No, he's saying that it was a shame, and a poor judgement of character from Ling, that Taylor was so shit whilst Martin was off that meant we needed to get somebody in....assistant managers should be able to take over the team if the manager is unavailable and Taylor was way short of that.

[AustrianAndyGull]

It's about time we gave youth a chance and just said stuff it. Show us what you can do. Hopefully one or two might grasp the nettle and we'd end up a bit better off. Ship all the loanees back and start putting some faith in the others. I know it is possibly the worst time young players should be thrown in but we do it with others clubs young loanees so why not ours. They play for the club so give them the chance. If they aren't good enough then we go down but we're going down anyway.

[DevonYellow]

I would tend to agree and also through into the equation the fact that Torbay is one of the most deprived areas in the country. The average wage is much much less than the national and even regional averages.

So, when you're not earning a great deal, and have no family affiliation to the club, it takes a great deal to stump up £20 to watch a team that the vast majority say are "crap". Even when we are doing well the culture in the bay is that Torquay are crap and will mess it up in the end.

There is so much football on the television that people can choose to pay £50 a month to watch a "crap" team 2/3 times, or pay it to sky and watch as many games as you like of a higher quality in the comfort of your own home or go down the pub!

When most of Torquay will tell you TUFC are rubbish and Sky keep telling you the premier league is the only thing worth watching it's easy to see why many choose tv for their football fix and entertainment.

It's no surprise our attendances were higher all those years ago when there were only a handful of games on tv a year.

Unfortunately the product we are offering, at the moment, just isn't attractive to the casual fan.

[arcadia]

No, he's saying that it was a shame, and a poor judgement of character from Ling, that Taylor was so sh*t whilst Martin was off that meant we needed to get somebody in....assistant managers should be able to take over the team if the manager is unavailable and Taylor was way short of that.

Thanks for that!

[exilegull]

Rubbish - it isn't the fans fault at all. People just won't turn up to watch this dross week in week out. If we were challenging for promotion the crowds would probably be a third bigger. Of course we are never going to attract big crowds but we should be perfectly capable of getting in crowds of 3000.
The reason we are getting half that against Burton is because we are useless, and lose practically all our home games.
We have been on a downward slide for god knows how long really. Blimey we cannot even win a cup game of any description.
Even when Ling was here we were getting knocked out by a bunch of non league no hopers.
What I don't accept though is pound for pound our players are any worse than the likes of Exeter,Mansfield,Accrington etc etc.
Its more that we havn't addressed the problems in certain positions ie left back,striker etc.

One third better is pathetic Brucie - a bad season and we get 2300, a good season we get 2800. York spent years in the conference, averaging crowds of 2200 and now despite having two mediocre seasons are nearly at 4000 - Mansfield the same. The season challenging for automatic promotion under Ling we got 2800 - how can the club build on success, when success brings next to nothing extra to build with?

[Fonda]

Exactly right. My post wasn't intended as a criticism of those that don't want to watch crap football - merely an explanation of the difficulties the club faces.

As for our 'natural level' that I alluded to, we might historically be a League club, but Crawley are 'historically non-league dross. Times are changing (with money being the cause). Currently, I'd suggest the natural place for a club such as ours probably isn't in the football league. As painful as that is to admit.

[kevgull]

For the past 18 months we have been mis managed at Boardroom level.
The decision making processes they have chosen to adopt have failed.
We have just over a 1/4 of the season left and I fear that the board are all out of Aces!


Jesus is all out of miracles, he will no longer save us.

" God .......... Whhhhhhhere aaaaaaaaare yyyyyyyyou"!

[SBP]

Its very simple really, are players are not good enough. We were being told 2-3 years ago that we were over achieving in the play offs.
We have not invested into enough quality into our squad. After selling Bobby, Eunan and Mark Ellis. Zebs and Nicky Wroe before that.
We have had no continuity.
Can we really say that after Zebs left we have had a player of his quality. Nope. I dont think so. Discounting Eunan can we really say that we have had a better midfielder than Nicky Wroe since. Nope.
We have struggled with our full backs for ages. Mansell was never really a right back, nobody really knew where Oastlers best position was, yet he was at right back. Nico has struggled with his lack of pace for the last couple of seasons. Cruise has been in and out and never really cemented the left back position. I could go on and on but it all comes down to the squad over the last couple of years needed investment and it never got it.

[Fonda]

And to significantly improve the playing staff, money is required...