The Blame Game

[ferrarilover]

I'm not saying anything about managers or sackings or relegation, except the same thing I've said all along (because it was true). Sacking Knill (had some of our Board not been considerably more slimy than anyone could believe) would have, as near as makes no difference, certainly relegated us. As it is, our Board is comprised of some utterly shameless individuals who think nothing of robbing a little old lady of her pension in order that they may strut about the place as though they might not be a gaggle of complete and utter arseholes.

Not sacking Knill might well have relegated us, but (absenting the arseholes) would definitely have done so and that is where Hector and I differ in our thinking. The predominant difference is that Hec is basing his posts on personal dislike of Knilly and a chunk of guesswork, where as I'm basing mine on actual knowledge (which is why I appear to him to be an Oracle).

Matt.

[Gullscorer]

I'm not saying anything about managers or sackings or relegation, except the same thing I've said all along (because it was true). Sacking Knill (had some of our Board not been considerably more slimy than anyone could believe) would have, as near as makes no difference, certainly relegated us. As it is, our Board is comprised of some utterly shameless individuals who think nothing of robbing a little old lady of her pension in order that they may strut about the place as though they might not be a gaggle of complete and utter arseholes.

Not sacking Knill might well have relegated us, but (absenting the arseholes) would definitely have done so and that is where Hector and I differ in our thinking. The predominant difference is that Hec is basing his posts on personal dislike of Knilly and a chunk of guesswork, where as I'm basing mine on actual knowledge (which is why I appear to him to be an Oracle).

Matt.

But without the infallible authority, presumably, Matt. After all, none of us is perfect. Unless, of course, you know better... :~D

[DJ Gull]

So it seems now is the time for recriminations and accusations of blame. But where does the fault really lie for our current plight?

Hargreaves is the man in charge, and has completely failed to re-invigorate the playing squad in the way that we all hoped and many expected he would. So it’s his fault isn’t it?

But it was Knill that built the majority of this squad, and the evident apathy within it, so many will maintain that he is the biggest culprit.

Others will point the finger at this group of players, suggesting that there is enough quality within the squad to be more than competitive in this division, and they simply haven’t put in enough graft.

And yet more will suggest the consortium in charge of the club is completely culpable, for focussing their energies on none football matters and neglecting the playing squad.

Of course all these people are culpable to an extent. Mistakes have been made from top to bottom that have contributed to our demise. But arguing about who is most to blame is pointless and isn’t going to help. There is a massive elephant in the room (or rather not in the room). The true route of all evil. Dirty cash. We don’t have any, and increasingly, even at this level, you can’t compete without it.

People will use Accrington as an example of why tiny budgets can compete – but they are one of a decreasing number of exceptions, and I’d hazard a guess their time will come – sooner rather than later. It can certainly be argued that they’ve managed the budget they do have, better than us. But everything finds its level eventually. We are realistically about to find ours, and I don’t think it’ll be long before the likes of Accrington and Dagenham find theirs again too.

Simply, unless there is massive investment (such as at Doncaster for example), teams such as ours can only compete for so long, with the odds stacked so totally against us. It’s stating the obvious, but many seem to have overlooked it – if you can’t afford players as good as those that other clubs have, you’re going to struggle.

So in my opinion the true fault lies with the apathetic population of Torquay (or Torbay in fact). Our club simply can’t support a league team with the income it generates. Could the club have done more to entice greater support? It faces continued criticism that it doesn’t do enough. But the public of Torbay know the club is there. I’m very much of the opinion you can’t create an interest that doesn’t exist. No amount of flyers will get me to a rugby match, and people who don’t like football simply won’t want to go and watch football. They’ve tried incentives (such as the half-season tickets), I wonder how much take-up there was on that? They can only do so much. There isn’t enough interest and for that reason the harsh reality is, we’re going to end up where we deserve to be.

So don’t blame the managers, players or owners. Not completely at least. The fault lies in the apathy of the local population and it has long been so.

Surley as supporters we have a responsibility to encourage friends/family/neighbors to attend a game or two, weather it be for an afternoon out or an all out attemt to convert them to the yellow army?

If everyone could bring one extra person to a game, this doubles the gate (I know thats a farfetched examply).

Me and a pal of mine have resorted to bringing our parteners with us to cheltnham in a small attempt to firstly increase the TUFC numbers at the game, and secondly to hope they enjoy the day out enough to attend the odd home game so Torquay earn an extra £17 here and there.

[tauntongull]

We have been here before and still had plenty of great support from our fans. The difference this time around is that I, and I am sure there are many more, don't have the belief in a squad of players who have under performed all season that they have what it takes to win games. When the hope and belief is gone, so are the fans!

[Dave]

Depends which club you're talking about. In L2, the gate money is much more important than in the Premier League, but the advertising, the money from the big boys, the FA funding, sponsorship, private investment and a host of other things make up a big percentage of the income for small clubs like ours.

Yep, I get all that Matt. But things like money from the big boys as you put it, ring fenced funding for youth development football is the same for all League 2 clubs, the only difference and it will be minimal is the higher up the league you finish the greater share of the football league pot the clubs receive, so my comparison to average gates between us and Rochdale and say Burton another club near the top with a lower average gate, was indeed relevant, because in those areas Rochdale and Burton would receive no more money than us.

Private investment, yes you have appoint there, and one reason why I didn't mention Fleetwood another club near the top with a lower average gate than us, but do have wealthy backers. Do Rochdale and Burton have the type of backing that Fleetwood and Newport do, not that I'm aware of.

So income from commercial ventures, do both these clubs have vastly superior income commercially than we do, possible, but can't see it being vastly greater than our own, take the point about F.A cup runs as well, but no lower league club would budget long term against a cup run , bit like a householder taking out a £30k loan on the strength of over time payments, all very well until the over time stops.

So it leads me right back to my suggestion that some of these clubs make better and more efficient use of the money they do have, and both these clubs actually understand the value of having a competitive football league more so that we do.

Love your analogy about the trainers and fixing the car, is true, and did make me chuckle. But my answer to that would be, fixing the car is the no 1 priority above all, so what was more important for TUFC what was the bigger priority, obvious maintaining our league status, if only to hold on to the income that comes with it. So the club did have £200k to spend on the training but not the team, and I will always believe in this case, the club brought the trainers, when they should have fixed the car.

To close this, what's done is done, and no amount of crying over split milk is going change it so will not continue to drag this up over and over again, signed still hoping for a miracle from Newton Abbot.

[NA Gull]

I suspect the money for the training ground was allocated long before we were in serious trouble and we had committed to developing Seale Hayne. I solely blame Knill for the predicament. He had a budget on par with Ling and assembled an imbalanced squad with little quality and persistence to 442 when it was clear it was not working cost us points.

IMO Hargreaves is not to blame. He inherited dross and had limited funds to improve things. You can't polish a turd.

[Fonda]

Chris Hargreaves is the current manager of the team and has made several of his own signings, so he definitely has some responsibility.

Alan Knill is a pretty dour 'outsider', Chris Hargreaves a 'club legend', who doubtless bleeds yellow. It's no surprise to me one is taking all the blame, and the other is apparently completely blameless. A manager with no responsibility? Decent job that. Next time Knill's win percentage stats are quoted, make sure the Wimbledon and Pompey games are in there too - because if he remains the cause of our defeats, at least credit him with the victories too...

[NA Gull]

He has made several signings. The only ones that cost money in wages is Showumni, the rest are being paid in full by their parent clubs. CH has not been able to sign the players he wanted as we did not have the money, he has had to beg and borrow kids who clubs wanted to get some game time Hardly ideal in our position.

[Fonda]

How many of those 'senior' players did you think would be crap when they signed? Personally, I thought the squad that was built looked competitive - it just hasn't worked out - for either of the managers.

[ferrarilover]

He has made several signings. The only ones that cost money in wages is Showumni, the rest are being paid in full by their parent clubs. CH has not been able to sign the players he wanted as we did not have the money, he has had to beg and borrow kids who clubs wanted to get some game time Hardly ideal in our position.

The second sentence is untrue, the rest of it is pretty fair.

Matt.

[arcadia]

Face facts the side was destroyed when Rene Howe and Ryan Jarvis left last season and not replaced with the same or better quality. We lost two centrehalves previous to this and there has been a steady decline in form.
Most of the players are suffering from a lack of belief in theirselves if they can regain that, things could change.
Rene and Ryan you don't appreciate them untill they are gone.
We need to get back to basics and try to get a result on Saturday. Once we know our fate build for the future.

[harrytorquay101]

What I struggle to understand is how around 18 months ago we were fighting for promotion, and within a blink of an eye, 2 seasons running we're battling against relegation. O'Kane was obviously a big loss, and then the likes of Howe and Jarvis. I agree totally with arcadia, not that long ago quite a few of you were sl*gging of Rene, wouldn't you just love him back right now? Craig, Yeoman and Thompson I though all broke through last year, take a look. Craig: can pass, can cross, shoots and can use both feet. Yeoman: Proved himself last year, can score, can shoot, can run fast, got good feet, better than Hawley probably, if it were me id get him back, better than a O'Brien who costs more right? Thompson: Unbelievably quick, powerful, not afraid to cross, runs at defenders, could be a real asset if we actually used him. Play the bloody loaned players! However admittedly they are young and inexperienced but still!

[brucie]

Having seen Yeoman last year if he had recieved the same amount of game time he would definately have scored more goals than Hawley.
Someone else said that Hawley is possibly one of the worst strikers we have ever had at the club and that is true.
He is appalling, he plays with his back to goal,cannot shoot,cannot run,falls over continually - he is bloody awful.
Yet no doubt Hargreaves will play him again tomorrow night.

[Trojan 67]

So it seems now is the time for recriminations and accusations of blame. But where does the fault really lie for our current plight?

Hargreaves is the man in charge, it’s his fault isn’t it?

Others will point the finger at this group of players, suggesting they simply haven’t put in enough graft.

And yet more will suggest the consortium in charge of the club is completely culpable, for focussing their energies on none football matters and neglecting the playing squad.

Of course all these people are culpable to an extent. Mistakes have been made from top to bottom that have contributed to our demise.

There is a massive elephant in the room . . . .

Aye and Trojan knows how to feed Trunky a bun. :devil: