A lot to look forward to?

[ferrarilover]

Ahaha, I get mine at the same time, we presume. Twas a birthday present from November. Are you secretly my dad?

Matt.

[CP Gull]

In truth, I really don't know what to think about next season. The make up of the Conference Premier League next season should hold no fear for us, but by the same token we don't even have the attraction of Exeter and Oxford for company. Like others have said, the club may just as well close the away end permanently next season as the likelihood of any opposing team bringing more than a couple of hundred is pretty remote I would imagine and in the vast majority of cases we will probably be able to count the away fans quite easily and quite quickly! I like the idea of turning the away stand over to home fans though as this might just improve the atmosphere in the ground a little bit. No doubt the financial implications i.e. cost of stewarding etc will put paid to any such notion though I expect.

What sort of team we will put togetherI really don't know but when you cast your mind back to those two years in the Conference we built that squad by quite simply bringing in proven, experienced players who knew the level and were very often some of the best players from teams at that level. After all, we managed to persuade Hargreaves to sign, we pinched the (then) best left back in the League from FGR in Nicholson, a proven striker/goalscorer at that level in Tim Sills, one of York City's best players and one of the best midfielders in the division in Nicky Wroe, we took Exeter's captain and top scorer from them in Todd and Phillips and even nicked young Elliot Benyon from under their noses when he was all set to sign for them and even persuaded Wayne Carlisle to pass up on the chance of a return to the League with them, choosing to sign up for a shot at another promotion out of the Conference with us. We even managed to pinch Matt Green from the "mighty" Oxford United and even though it didn't work out for him here, what a signing that could and should have been, likewise Muzzy Carayol (now a regular in the Championship) and young Mark Ellis also went on to earn us some money eventually. We also had one of the best keepers to play at that level at that time in Michael Poke from Southampton and still hung on to a promising young centre half in Chris Robertson even though we had just got relegated out of the League (another one we were to profit quite nicely from) ... what chance of hanging on to Krystian Pearce in similar circumstances this time around I wonder?

The thing is, the situation was a lot, lot different back them and I really cannot see us being able to repeat the sort of signings we made back them. It is far more likely that we will go down the road of young, untried pros released from bigger clubs. That's not to say that won't work of course but it is far more risky by way of a strategy for success. By buying up some of the best players in that League the last time around we pretty much guaranteed some sort of success and of course even helped to weaken the opposition at the same time.

The interest in the team and the opposition will surely drop dramatically next season (at least we had Exeter last time around) and inevitably the gates will drop, unless we really do get off to a flyer. The budget will almost certainly have to be slashed and may well be considerably lower than it was back then and all the while it seems that the youth set up is still struggling to flourish in the way that we might have hoped it would by now. With McKenzie gone and Thompson likely to follow soon, we still only have Yeoman to show for all the undoubted efforts put in by those in charge and only time will tell whether young Hutchings or Sullivan come to anything.

I know that certain individuals courted controversy,but when you think back to the structure we had in place back then, with the massively ambitious Buckle at the helm, ably assisted by North and with John Milton scouring the country scouting talent to improve us, with Colin Lee providing the vital link between the Board and the Management Team, with a "proper" Chairman and Leader in Alex Rowe and with the late, great Paul Bristow RIP with his massive lottery win burning a hole in his pocket we had real genuine reasons for optimism back then and the level of interest for the opening game against Grays Athletic (remember them?) was so great that we had nearly 4000 in the ground on that opening day ... we will surely be lucky to have half that amount this time around.

Of course, all is not doom and gloom, but that line up of Bristow, Rowe, Lee, Buckle, North and Milton all driving us on was an extremely powerful one, the like of which we may quite possibly never see again. We need to rebuild both on and off the field and we need proper leadership too both on and off the field, something which has been sadly lacking I feel over the course of the last couple of years.

Of course, the sort of structure we had in place back then and the sort of playing squad we were able to assemble cost a lot of money and whilst hopefully we will at least have a far better infrastructure in place than we did back then I guess there just isn't the sort of money left anymore to try and attempt to remodel the club on similar lines this time around. We will just have to hope that Chris Hargreaves has the knack of finding some gems, diamonds in the rough, that we can develop and sell on for decent money ...but it won't be easy that's for sure.

[Glostergull]

Torquay til I die. The players will change, the league will change, but I will always be yellow to my core. I will be there, loud and proud again next season, for the 40th season, COYY

So will I mate. So will I

[bixieupnorth]

some nice northern trips for me, gutted that chester went down and hoping so much that halifax dont make it thru the playoffs

it'll be nice to have a decent highlights programme on bt sports, the odd live game too, but i bet they end up moving lincoln away to an evening game to ruin another drinking trip!!

aside from that i'm surprisingly ok about our latest relegation, big fish in a small pond, the fa trophy, fa cup premlinary rounds...

[Neal]

Although I don't think we will do very well next season if we can't somehow get rid of some of the contracted players I don't blame Hargreaves. Those players were signed by knill and he is probably stuck with them.

I'm not fully confident in Hargreaves ability, he has to win my trust, I will not blindly think he is up to it until I have some evidence.

I want those highly paid poor players shipped out somehow.

But..... I enjoyed the conference years. Going to Lewis was great, we changed ends at half time, stood with the home fans, no hint of trouble, was really enjoyable.

I'm really looking forward to Eastleigh and Woking. Few beers and new grounds.

Last time we started a fresh, and I really hope we can do the same this time because I have no faith in the likes of Tongue, Harding, Hawley at all

[ferrarilover]

Thing with the squad is that, as bad as some people think it is, if we swap out Hawley and swap in Goodwin, over the course of this season, I don't think we'd have been relegated from L2. So, realistically, how bad can that squad really be in the Conference? It's hardly as though we ever got lucky, so we can't have that go any more against us than it already does.

If we beat Wycombe, our EPA earned points average (worked out, for those who know, in a similar fashion to ERA in baseball) under Hargreaves will be 54.76 (call it 55). So, with Chris at the helm and the other things which come together to dictate a club's on pitch performance, we'd have been safe with the players we've got. Some won't be here next season, but if we can replace them with players almost as good and give Chris the whole season, surely we've got little to fear?

Matt.

[hector]

In truth, I really don't know what to think about next season. The make up of the Conference Premier League next season should hold no fear for us, but by the same token we don't even have the attraction of Exeter and Oxford for company. Like others have said, the club may just as well close the away end permanently next season as the likelihood of any opposing team bringing more than a couple of hundred is pretty remote I would imagine and in the vast majority of cases we will probably be able to count the away fans quite easily and quite quickly! I like the idea of turning the away stand over to home fans though as this might just improve the atmosphere in the ground a little bit. No doubt the financial implications i.e. cost of stewarding etc will put paid to any such notion though I expect.

What sort of team we will put togetherI really don't know but when you cast your mind back to those two years in the Conference we built that squad by quite simply bringing in proven, experienced players who knew the level and were very often some of the best players from teams at that level. After all, we managed to persuade Hargreaves to sign, we pinched the (then) best left back in the League from FGR in Nicholson, a proven striker/goalscorer at that level in Tim Sills, one of York City's best players and one of the best midfielders in the division in Nicky Wroe, we took Exeter's captain and top scorer from them in Todd and Phillips and even nicked young Elliot Benyon from under their noses when he was all set to sign for them and even persuaded Wayne Carlisle to pass up on the chance of a return to the League with them, choosing to sign up for a shot at another promotion out of the Conference with us. We even managed to pinch Matt Green from the "mighty" Oxford United and even though it didn't work out for him here, what a signing that could and should have been, likewise Muzzy Carayol (now a regular in the Championship) and young Mark Ellis also went on to earn us some money eventually. We also had one of the best keepers to play at that level at that time in Michael Poke from Southampton and still hung on to a promising young centre half in Chris Robertson even though we had just got relegated out of the League (another one we were to profit quite nicely from) ... what chance of hanging on to Krystian Pearce in similar circumstances this time around I wonder?

The thing is, the situation was a lot, lot different back them and I really cannot see us being able to repeat the sort of signings we made back them. It is far more likely that we will go down the road of young, untried pros released from bigger clubs. That's not to say that won't work of course but it is far more risky by way of a strategy for success. By buying up some of the best players in that League the last time around we pretty much guaranteed some sort of success and of course even helped to weaken the opposition at the same time.

The interest in the team and the opposition will surely drop dramatically next season (at least we had Exeter last time around) and inevitably the gates will drop, unless we really do get off to a flyer. The budget will almost certainly have to be slashed and may well be considerably lower than it was back then and all the while it seems that the youth set up is still struggling to flourish in the way that we might have hoped it would by now. With McKenzie gone and Thompson likely to follow soon, we still only have Yeoman to show for all the undoubted efforts put in by those in charge and only time will tell whether young Hutchings or Sullivan come to anything.

I know that certain individuals courted controversy,but when you think back to the structure we had in place back then, with the massively ambitious Buckle at the helm, ably assisted by North and with John Milton scouring the country scouting talent to improve us, with Colin Lee providing the vital link between the Board and the Management Team, with a "proper" Chairman and Leader in Alex Rowe and with the late, great Paul Bristow RIP with his massive lottery win burning a hole in his pocket we had real genuine reasons for optimism back then and the level of interest for the opening game against Grays Athletic (remember them?) was so great that we had nearly 4000 in the ground on that opening day ... we will surely be lucky to have half that amount this time around.

Of course, all is not doom and gloom, but that line up of Bristow, Rowe, Lee, Buckle, North and Milton all driving us on was an extremely powerful one, the like of which we may quite possibly never see again. We need to rebuild both on and off the field and we need proper leadership too both on and off the field, something which has been sadly lacking I feel over the course of the last couple of years.

Of course, the sort of structure we had in place back then and the sort of playing squad we were able to assemble cost a lot of money and whilst hopefully we will at least have a far better infrastructure in place than we did back then I guess there just isn't the sort of money left anymore to try and attempt to remodel the club on similar lines this time around. We will just have to hope that Chris Hargreaves has the knack of finding some gems, diamonds in the rough, that we can develop and sell on for decent money ...but it won't be easy that's for sure.

A very good post - you always manage to post what I think, so eloquently.

Like you may have thought - the last time we went down, it didn't even feel so bad to be down because Exeter were already there. Everything was exciting in a strange way. It almost felt like the Conference received more coverage than League 2 at the time. Getting promoted felt a little like getting promoted to obscurity.

I bought the Non-League Paper yesterday. Just to start getting used to teams and structures I hadn't thought about in years. It hasn't changed and it won't be long before our 5 years back in the league, are viewed in history as a bit of a blip, a spell of over achievement, in the way some of us perhaps feel when looking at historical league tables of Torquay's time in the old Division 3 in the 1960s.

Like Matt and one or two others have pointed out and suggest, the notion that being a league club is 'punching above our weight' is a misnomer, peddled by Mike Bateson for years to keep the masses happy with perennial struggling, a notion that was happily gobbled up because 'Mike saved the club'.

What it did do is sow the seeds for what has happened. Probably everyone knew that at some point we would go down again. Perhaps not in the wasteful, unnecessary way we have done. But our expectations have been so demeaned and dampened that avoiding relegation is now seen as success.

It never used to be this way. When I started watching Torquay, we were never troubled by the bottom 4 (applying for re-election, as it was known then), we were a mid-table (and had they existed) play-off position, challenging team. We may have had a reputation for being crap but essentially from the end of World War 2 and for the next roughly 45-50 years (bar 2 under Webb), until Bateson started lowering everyone's expectations, the thing we were not, was 4th divison fodder.

Finishing 17th, well clear of the bottom 4, in 1981, got Mike Green the sack. He'd get a medal nowadays for achieving such dizzy heights!!!!

It is not so much being in the Conference for the football and the teams, that bothers me so much, it is the lost funding that I fear and what that does long-term for the club. But then I suppose none of the other teams get it either and Torquay United should be one of the top 5/6 clubs in that league based on attendances, potential etc, so whilst there may be some novelty playing lots of new teams, it will soon wear off if we are under-performing - which, not challenging for the play-offs will certainly be.

But as CP Gull, puts it so well, the last time we were set up for it. We even had a General Manager in Darryl Batten - fresh from the Grand Hotel or somewhere. The whole set-up was in a different league to anything we had seen before. And whereas last time, we really did seem to be the big fish, glamour team of the division (or was that just the way Setanta made it seem?) it probably won't quite be so next year.

We'll see.

Certainly, there is a lot the club need to do to make me think of renewing my season-ticket. I seem to remember that the early-bird offer was extended last year but with it finishing in 11 days or so, there isn't going to be an enormous amount of time for fans to see enough intent from the club in terms of signings etc, to persuade fans.

The last thing I would want to do, is jump for the early bird offer and then find out that we cannot afford to sign anyone and the youth team will be playing.

[FavGull]

Thing with the squad is that, as bad as some people think it is, if we swap out Hawley and swap in Goodwin, over the course of this season, I don't think we'd have been relegated from L2. So, realistically, how bad can that squad really be in the Conference? It's hardly as though we ever got lucky, so we can't have that go any more against us than it already does.

If we beat Wycombe, our EPA earned points average (worked out, for those who know, in a similar fashion to ERA in baseball) under Hargreaves will be 54.76 (call it 55). So, with Chris at the helm and the other things which come together to dictate a club's on pitch performance, we'd have been safe with the players we've got. Some won't be here next season, but if we can replace them with players almost as good and give Chris the whole season, surely we've got little to fear?

Matt.

Don't disagree with the sentiment of your post at all.

However, your EPA stat presumably is how many points we would have got if we had Hargreaves as manager all season (didn't check the maths), whereas ERA shows how many runs a pitcher gives up over 9 inningd adjusted for factors outside of his control (other pitchers, fielding errors). Don't see the connection personally, but would be interested to know if the calculation is in some way adjusted for penalties that should have been scored or sendings off which shouldn't have happened (more of an opinion in football though, errors recorded on score sheet in baseball).

Sorry, I get a bit precious about baseball. Excellent sport, second best in the world.

Also, if my understanding of the EPA stay is correct and we lose on Saturday then I assume our total score under CH will be relegation worthy?

I am confident for next season though, as long as all involved with the club pull in the same direction. Promotion, or let's dream here, the title, and surely we will be up there with the most successful non league sides ever!

[yellowforever]

Thing with the squad is that, as bad as some people think it is, if we swap out Hawley and swap in Goodwin, over the course of this season, I don't think we'd have been relegated from L2. So, realistically, how bad can that squad really be in the Conference? It's hardly as though we ever got lucky, so we can't have that go any more against us than it already does.

If we beat Wycombe, our EPA earned points average (worked out, for those who know, in a similar fashion to ERA in baseball) under Hargreaves will be 54.76 (call it 55). So, with Chris at the helm and the other things which come together to dictate a club's on pitch performance, we'd have been safe with the players we've got. Some won't be here next season, but if we can replace them with players almost as good and give Chris the whole season, surely we've got little to fear?

Matt.

I also agree with the sentiment. Goodwin/Coulthirst for the whole season would probably equate to a mid-table finish.

Final points total projection under Hargreaves is 52.8 as well by the way according to my stat collection, but of course as you say that would have made us safe (when rounded to 2 significant figures to give us 53 points).

Having spent much time reading about sports statistics, mainly from the world of baseball but also football (American and English), it isn't quite the same applying statistics like that to football.

I don't have any gripes with your conclusion however, Hargreaves deserves his chance next season. Most of the problem lies with poor transfers in key positions. Centre back, Centre midfield and 2 Strikers, i.e. the core outfield positions all needed strengthening this year with real quality, and 3/4 of them were atrocious. Harding was the 'big' CM signing, Hawley/Benyon were the 'big' ST signings.

[yellowforever]

Also, if my understanding of the EPA stay is correct and we lose on Saturday then I assume our total score under CH will be relegation worthy?

Losing on Saturday would give Hargreaves a 50 (2 s.f.) point projection for the season. Our projected goal difference would be -13 (2 s.f.), assuming that we only lost by 1 goal.

This would mean that we'd be above Northampton and below Rovers and Wycombe, relying on Rovers and Northampton to lose on the final day (Rovers heavily) in order to stay up.

[ferrarilover]

I hadn't actually worked out the EPA without Wycombe. I felt a bit ropey last night, so wasn't really up for more maths.

My understanding of ERA is that it does not include errors etc, because they are unearned runs, so can't figure in Earned Run Average.
The only connection between the two was that I had taken a part-complete timeframe (half a season) and used it to calculate a whole season average. Not foolproof, of course, but the best we've got.

Matt.

[brucie]

I don't agree that having Goodwin would have made any difference.

Although if either Coulthirst or Yeoman had had the same amount of game time as Hawley then we would have stayed up for definate.
How many time did we actually get hammered by anybody this season? - not many. Fleetwood and Hartlepool.
The latter game could be attributed to a team selection including Stevens/Harding who hadn't kicked a ball in anger for yonks.
Exeter at home 3-1 which was daylight robbery and a couple of defeats which I cannnot remember when we had no centre halves.
Other than that every game has been close. When we score two we invariably win - so its obvious where the fault lies.
In fact Hawley is probably the worst striker I have ever seen.

[Behind-the-Gulls]

I don't agree that having Goodwin would have made any difference.

Although if either Coulthirst or Yeoman had had the same amount of game time as Hawley then we would have stayed up for definate.
How many time did we actually get hammered by anybody this season? - not many. Fleetwood and Hartlepool.
The latter game could be attributed to a team selection including Stevens/Harding who hadn't kicked a ball in anger for yonks.
Exeter at home 3-1 which was daylight robbery and a couple of defeats which I cannnot remember when we had no centre halves.
Other than that every game has been close. When we score two we invariably win - so its obvious where the fault lies.
In fact Hawley is probably the worst striker I have ever seen.

Well there's been some bad one's Brucie-worse than Dean Mooney,Laryea,Mario Walsh etc?

[ferrarilover]

You say bad, I say efficient. He's got two goals this season from two shots, that's a remarkable record.

I think Goodwin would have got us 8 goals this year, which (if scored in the right games) would have been enough of an increase over Hawley to see us stay up. You could say Yeoman would have done the same and he probably would. Ditto Coulthirst. Same with Marquis.

There used to be a campaign called ABU, Anyone But United. I think we should start one here called ABH...

Matt.

[happytorq]

Sorry, I get a bit precious about baseball. Excellent sport, second best in the world.

Come on now, it's a terrible game. It was probably good years ago, but going to a game now is a whole day endeavour, taking at least 4 hours (although you do get time to nap). I've tried to like baseball, I really have - I've been to a few games, and visited both Yankee Stadium and Citi Field, and I've never been so bored in my life. When some guy whacks it a mile, that's pretty exciting, but that happens so rarely that the chances you'll either queuing to get beer (to wash away the misery of the day), or like I've said, you'll be asleep.

There's a reason MLB attendances have been dropping for the past few years (since about 2007, I think). It's still the 'american pastime' but more kids are playing football (soccer, i mean ) than are doing little league now, and that's not likely to change any time soon.

I have an argument with baseball fans pretty regularly who complain football is boring, that all the players do is pass the ball backwards, which I find hilarious because about 90% of the baseball games I've had the misfortune to watch have been like this:

Guy throws the ball. Guy catches the ball
Guy throws the ball. Guy catches the ball
Guy throws the ball. Guy catches the ball
Guy throws the ball. Guy catches the ball
Guy throws the ball. EXCITEMENT: Guy Swings the bat. Misses. Guy catches the ball
Guy throws the ball. Guy catches the ball
Guy throws the ball. Guy catches the ball