I personally do not blame the board for appointing Alan Knill, he was in the right place at the right time, and it was a sensible appointment . The board should be held accountable for this relegation, they are the custodians of the club, they make the decisions that effect every aspect of running the club and ultimately have made mistakes.
Performances, followed by results starting slipping long before Martin Ling went sick , I've stood on the popside game in game out watching a gradual decline, somebody amongst our directors needed to stand up take some responsibly, and find out what was needed to arrest that slide. The team clearly needed investment, we had the money, it got spent everywhere else but the team.
alan knill
Formerly known as forevertufc
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oxgull
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forevertufc wrote:I personally do not blame the board for appointing Alan Knill, he was in the right place at the right time, and it was a sensible appointment . The board should be held accountable for this relegation, they are the custodians of the club, they make the decisions that effect every aspect of running the club and ultimately have made mistakes.
Performances, followed by results starting slipping long before Martin Ling went sick , I've stood on the popside game in game out watching a gradual decline, somebody amongst our directors needed to stand up take some responsibly, and find out what was needed to arrest that slide. The team clearly needed investment, we had the money, it got spent everywhere else but the team.
Right you are on this Dave.
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gullintwoplaces
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Forever is right in his comment. However, I also blame Knill for the atrocious performances served up under his leadership, for his weird selection decisions and for his overall dreadful failure. I can't say that I wish him well at Northampton, I hope they lose to Oxford and go through sweaty palm time on Saturday. I don't think Knill's team will be relegated as we will beat Wycombe, but I would like Knill to have an anxious time on Saturday.
Alan Knill's job was not made easier by seeing his transfer budget slashed dramatically just days after he was appointed, and the departures of key players, and experienced pros, Saah, Jarvis and Howe also left him with serious voids to fill.
However, in the previous season we had suffered from a lack of goals scored, so to leave the eventual 'marquee' signings of Ball and Hawley up until the very last minutes of pre-season was always going to be a huge risk, and so it proved. Relying on them to score goals is one thing, to get them settled into a new team and unfamiliar surroundings is another.
AK did not help himself by suggesting he'd need 10 games to judge the squad. It is a huge gamble to take in the current football climate, especially when, with our tight financial restrictions, it would prove difficult to fix what he deemed to be going wrong. The first 10 matches, as it turned out, were lacklustre, characterised again by a lack of goals. That 20 minute spell at Sixfields being the anomaly and also the hope some held on to that, given time, AK could get it right.
So the 10 games had passed. Harding and Cameron had not settled in, goalscoring was once again an issue, it didn't look like the current formation would provide the misfiring Hawley, Benyon and Ball with enough chances. Our porous defence looked disjointed and prone to error. This is where Knill called for back up in the shape of young loanees, being all we could afford, and sadly, if anything, performances got worse and goal scoring issues worsened from here on in as selection fast became devoid of continuity.
Amongst all the chaos, 2 players who, to this day, I believe would have made all the difference were cast aside. Lathrope and Yeoman, players who he had trusted at the business end of the season prior, and who had delivered under the biggest of pressure. Whilst his all round game may not fully be developed (only a handful of football league starts in his armoury) there is no denying that Yeoman knows how to put the ball into the back of the net. Hindsight is as wonderful as it is terrible, but I am adamant that he would have scored a dozen goals this year had he been given the proper chance his good work last year merited.
The board were right to sack Alan Knill, the first half of the season had been a disaster and morale was at an all time low. He seemed to have lacked the support of the remnants of the Ling reign, but also the confidence of those had had brought in during the summer. Fans were boycotting in protest to the lack of spark on the pitch. By his own admission, when sacked, there was not a lot more he could do with the materials he had at his disposal.
That said, when he left, our position was not fatal. There was plenty of time, and plenty of 'six pointers' for a new man to come in revitalise the club- backed with money, presumably unavailable to AK, to help make the escape possible. Alan Knill should not be held culpable for the events of January to April. The fans wanted him gone, he left, many got their wish, chapter closed on January 2nd.
The first half of the season sewed the seeds and set the tone to what was to come, but mistakes were also made elsewhere in the second half of the season, mistakes that can not be attributed to Mr Knill in any way. He is vehemently a contributing factor to this catastrophic season, but making him an overwhelming scapegoat is a step too far.
However, in the previous season we had suffered from a lack of goals scored, so to leave the eventual 'marquee' signings of Ball and Hawley up until the very last minutes of pre-season was always going to be a huge risk, and so it proved. Relying on them to score goals is one thing, to get them settled into a new team and unfamiliar surroundings is another.
AK did not help himself by suggesting he'd need 10 games to judge the squad. It is a huge gamble to take in the current football climate, especially when, with our tight financial restrictions, it would prove difficult to fix what he deemed to be going wrong. The first 10 matches, as it turned out, were lacklustre, characterised again by a lack of goals. That 20 minute spell at Sixfields being the anomaly and also the hope some held on to that, given time, AK could get it right.
So the 10 games had passed. Harding and Cameron had not settled in, goalscoring was once again an issue, it didn't look like the current formation would provide the misfiring Hawley, Benyon and Ball with enough chances. Our porous defence looked disjointed and prone to error. This is where Knill called for back up in the shape of young loanees, being all we could afford, and sadly, if anything, performances got worse and goal scoring issues worsened from here on in as selection fast became devoid of continuity.
Amongst all the chaos, 2 players who, to this day, I believe would have made all the difference were cast aside. Lathrope and Yeoman, players who he had trusted at the business end of the season prior, and who had delivered under the biggest of pressure. Whilst his all round game may not fully be developed (only a handful of football league starts in his armoury) there is no denying that Yeoman knows how to put the ball into the back of the net. Hindsight is as wonderful as it is terrible, but I am adamant that he would have scored a dozen goals this year had he been given the proper chance his good work last year merited.
The board were right to sack Alan Knill, the first half of the season had been a disaster and morale was at an all time low. He seemed to have lacked the support of the remnants of the Ling reign, but also the confidence of those had had brought in during the summer. Fans were boycotting in protest to the lack of spark on the pitch. By his own admission, when sacked, there was not a lot more he could do with the materials he had at his disposal.
That said, when he left, our position was not fatal. There was plenty of time, and plenty of 'six pointers' for a new man to come in revitalise the club- backed with money, presumably unavailable to AK, to help make the escape possible. Alan Knill should not be held culpable for the events of January to April. The fans wanted him gone, he left, many got their wish, chapter closed on January 2nd.
The first half of the season sewed the seeds and set the tone to what was to come, but mistakes were also made elsewhere in the second half of the season, mistakes that can not be attributed to Mr Knill in any way. He is vehemently a contributing factor to this catastrophic season, but making him an overwhelming scapegoat is a step too far.
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Alpine Joe
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bengull
I think that's a pretty fair summary Ben and quite an even handed assessment of Knill's time as manager. Those who supporters identify as key players don't always coincide with who the manager views as key, and I think that was the case with Knill.
He could well have quite wanted Brian Saah to stay, but with what was expected to be a style with two wingers and crosses into the box, I got the feeling that Knill was happy enough for Rene (who was never a big fan of heading the ball) to leave and to replace him with someone more suited to his ideas. Similarly with Jarvis who was made aware he wouldn't figure in the first team plans, and the 'peanuts' offer if he stayed was no doubt to encourage him to take the managers advice and find another club for himself, as Knill reflected on before Jarvis returned with York:
’We offered him a deal and to be fair, it wasn’t the most money. I more or less said to him that if someone came in with a better deal and at his age, with another baby coming, he would have to take that.
Knilly was quite entitled to usher those players he didn't particularly want towards the door so that he could free up the wages to go towards players he wanted to bring in. Whether he was making good or bad decisions continues to split opinion, as Hector and Stefano often remind us.
the departures of key players, and experienced pros, Saah, Jarvis and Howe also left him with serious voids to fill.
I think that's a pretty fair summary Ben and quite an even handed assessment of Knill's time as manager. Those who supporters identify as key players don't always coincide with who the manager views as key, and I think that was the case with Knill.
He could well have quite wanted Brian Saah to stay, but with what was expected to be a style with two wingers and crosses into the box, I got the feeling that Knill was happy enough for Rene (who was never a big fan of heading the ball) to leave and to replace him with someone more suited to his ideas. Similarly with Jarvis who was made aware he wouldn't figure in the first team plans, and the 'peanuts' offer if he stayed was no doubt to encourage him to take the managers advice and find another club for himself, as Knill reflected on before Jarvis returned with York:
’We offered him a deal and to be fair, it wasn’t the most money. I more or less said to him that if someone came in with a better deal and at his age, with another baby coming, he would have to take that.
Knilly was quite entitled to usher those players he didn't particularly want towards the door so that he could free up the wages to go towards players he wanted to bring in. Whether he was making good or bad decisions continues to split opinion, as Hector and Stefano often remind us.
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Sunnysideup
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Good post Ben, the only thing I would add is that everyone seems to make the assumption that there was no attempt to recruit any other strikers prior to those that did sign.bengull wrote:Alan Knill's job was not made easier by seeing his transfer budget slashed dramatically just days after he was appointed, and the departures of key players, and experienced pros, Saah, Jarvis and Howe also left him with serious voids to fill.
However, in the previous season we had suffered from a lack of goals scored, so to leave the eventual 'marquee' signings of Ball and Hawley up until the very last minutes of pre-season was always going to be a huge risk, and so it proved. Relying on them to score goals is one thing, to get them settled into a new team and unfamiliar surroundings is another.
AK did not help himself by suggesting he'd need 10 games to judge the squad. It is a huge gamble to take in the current football climate, especially when, with our tight financial restrictions, it would prove difficult to fix what he deemed to be going wrong. The first 10 matches, as it turned out, were lacklustre, characterised again by a lack of goals. That 20 minute spell at Sixfields being the anomaly and also the hope some held on to that, given time, AK could get it right.
So the 10 games had passed. Harding and Cameron had not settled in, goalscoring was once again an issue, it didn't look like the current formation would provide the misfiring Hawley, Benyon and Ball with enough chances. Our porous defence looked disjointed and prone to error. This is where Knill called for back up in the shape of young loanees, being all we could afford, and sadly, if anything, performances got worse and goal scoring issues worsened from here on in as selection fast became devoid of continuity.
Amongst all the chaos, 2 players who, to this day, I believe would have made all the difference were cast aside. Lathrope and Yeoman, players who he had trusted at the business end of the season prior, and who had delivered under the biggest of pressure. Whilst his all round game may not fully be developed (only a handful of football league starts in his armoury) there is no denying that Yeoman knows how to put the ball into the back of the net. Hindsight is as wonderful as it is terrible, but I am adamant that he would have scored a dozen goals this year had he been given the proper chance his good work last year merited.
The board were right to sack Alan Knill, the first half of the season had been a disaster and morale was at an all time low. He seemed to have lacked the support of the remnants of the Ling reign, but also the confidence of those had had brought in during the summer. Fans were boycotting in protest to the lack of spark on the pitch. By his own admission, when sacked, there was not a lot more he could do with the materials he had at his disposal.
That said, when he left, our position was not fatal. There was plenty of time, and plenty of 'six pointers' for a new man to come in revitalise the club- backed with money, presumably unavailable to AK, to help make the escape possible. Alan Knill should not be held culpable for the events of January to April. The fans wanted him gone, he left, many got their wish, chapter closed on January 2nd.
The first half of the season sewed the seeds and set the tone to what was to come, but mistakes were also made elsewhere in the second half of the season, mistakes that can not be attributed to Mr Knill in any way. He is vehemently a contributing factor to this catastrophic season, but making him an overwhelming scapegoat is a step too far.
Apathy Rules...............it's ok though, nobody's that fussed about it........
There were those amongst us, who at the time, even without the benefit of hindsight, felt Knill was the wrong man.
If only, the club had investigated other options first.
To me, it always felt an awkward marriage, even without the appalling results. It always felt short-term and likely to end in tears - sadly, ours. Our position wasn't fatal when he left but his win return suggests it soon would have been. The gap is likely to have widened as it did under Hargreaves, especially seeing as his points per game return - with his own team - was even less than CH managed.
I also, never subscribed to the point of view that he 'saved us'. It is a misnomer. It was the poor form of divisional colleagues that helped us. Knill still only won 4 games in 3 months last year.
If only, the club had investigated other options first.
To me, it always felt an awkward marriage, even without the appalling results. It always felt short-term and likely to end in tears - sadly, ours. Our position wasn't fatal when he left but his win return suggests it soon would have been. The gap is likely to have widened as it did under Hargreaves, especially seeing as his points per game return - with his own team - was even less than CH managed.
I also, never subscribed to the point of view that he 'saved us'. It is a misnomer. It was the poor form of divisional colleagues that helped us. Knill still only won 4 games in 3 months last year.
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Scott Brehaut
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I never wanted Alan Knill, and thought it a disgrace that Ling had been given the push too.
Not hindsight - it's all on this site if anybody cares to look.
Not hindsight - it's all on this site if anybody cares to look.
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ferrarilover
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But then, plenty of people never wanted Lingy. While we were in the playoffs under him, those people mysteriously went quiet. As soon as we started doing badly, they all came flooding out of the woodwork. Sure, some of us may have had reservations about Knill, but they weren't based on anything concrete, they can't have been, because none of us could possibly know anything like enough about all the other factors which come together to make a managerial appointment a success or a failure.
As it turns out, those who though Knilly would be a disaster were right. That's really nothing more than a 50/50 call. We've seen for many years on here, dear, beloved Terrence and his predictions of doom and gloom at every turn. When he's wrong, he just rides out the flack until the next time he's right, (which, since he supports Torquay, is normally about 7 days) when he reappears and claims to be The Oracle.
It's easy to do this with a club like Torquay, because we're generally a bit of a shit side in a bit of a shit division. It's equally not a challenge as a Man United fan over the last 20 years. Just predict a season packed full of trophies and, when inevitably you're either right, or you come extremely close but don't win anything, then you can claim to be some sort of genius. We must all have seen people who claim to be "bookie bashing" every weekend, when they pull out yet another 5 fold acca. What they don't tell you is that they had a tenner on and got about £11.50 back because they had picked Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Bayern all to win at home with a 5 goal start.
Of course, it takes equally little skill to be completely wrong, as some of us are more aware than others
Matt.
As it turns out, those who though Knilly would be a disaster were right. That's really nothing more than a 50/50 call. We've seen for many years on here, dear, beloved Terrence and his predictions of doom and gloom at every turn. When he's wrong, he just rides out the flack until the next time he's right, (which, since he supports Torquay, is normally about 7 days) when he reappears and claims to be The Oracle.
It's easy to do this with a club like Torquay, because we're generally a bit of a shit side in a bit of a shit division. It's equally not a challenge as a Man United fan over the last 20 years. Just predict a season packed full of trophies and, when inevitably you're either right, or you come extremely close but don't win anything, then you can claim to be some sort of genius. We must all have seen people who claim to be "bookie bashing" every weekend, when they pull out yet another 5 fold acca. What they don't tell you is that they had a tenner on and got about £11.50 back because they had picked Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Bayern all to win at home with a 5 goal start.
Of course, it takes equally little skill to be completely wrong, as some of us are more aware than others
Matt.
J5 said, "ferrarilover is 100% correct"
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goodluckgull
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May the 1st today, so turned over page of my Torquay United calendar and for the month of May it is a photo of Knilly and Brassy ! A year ago I thought they had saved us and deserved to be in charge. Now I wish I had known better.
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Scott Brehaut
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I was against Knills appointment because history had showed that his managerial record was crap.
Nothing more than that - I just didn't see him as a stronger replacement than what we had in the first place.
Nothing more than that - I just didn't see him as a stronger replacement than what we had in the first place.
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Ditto.Scott Brehaut wrote:I never wanted Alan Knill, and thought it a disgrace that Ling had been given the push too.
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stefano
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If you had known for the best they would still be here and we would already be safe from relegation. But no it's easier to go with the popular uninformed view. We are going down! Why? Not because of Mr Knill. He hasn't been here for half a season. Might as well blame the Germans!goodluckgull wrote:May the 1st today, so turned over page of my Torquay United calendar and for the month of May it is a photo of Knilly and Brassy ! A year ago I thought they had saved us and deserved to be in charge. Now I wish I had known better.
:devil:stefano wrote: If you had known for the best they would still be here and we would already be safe from relegation. But no it's easier to go with the popular uninformed view. We are going down! Why? Not because of Mr Knill. He hasn't been here for half a season. Might as well blame the Germans!
Stefano - I suppose we should admire your steadfast loyalty to Alan Knill, but the fact is he HAS to take most of the blame for the shambles this season became. When he was 'relieved of his duties', we were in the bottom two and we were playing even worse than the poor sides we were playing against. There was no motivation or team spirit in the team - it was obvious to all of us who were turning up each week. Surely you would agree that it is a manager's job to motivate his staff, whether that be Torquay United or Berger King ? He was not doing his job and the biggest mistake was not giving him his P40 last November.
I had misgivings about Chris Hargreaves appointment but I did think he would get us out of the bottom two - he had four months to galvanise the players at the club into a team. Like others have posted, I am angry that we are being relegated because I truly think it shouldn't have happened.
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stefano
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tomogull wrote: Stefano - I suppose we should admire your steadfast loyalty to Alan Knill, but the fact is he HAS to take most of the blame for the shambles this season became. When he was 'relieved of his duties', we were in the bottom two and we were playing even worse than the poor sides we were playing against. There was no motivation or team spirit in the team - it was obvious to all of us who were turning up each week. Surely you would agree that it is a manager's job to motivate his staff, whether that be Torquay United or Berger King ? He was not doing his job and the biggest mistake was not giving him his P40 last November.
I had misgivings about Chris Hargreaves appointment but I did think he would get us out of the bottom two - he had four months to galvanise the players at the club into a team. Like others have posted, I am angry that we are being relegated because I truly think it shouldn't have happened.
It is only for the sake of balance as the Forum resembled Salem at a particularly ignominious section of it's history. That will be the interesting bit in a few years time .... when 'now' is history. Let's hope we can hold on long enough to be able to review it Tomo! I believe in Salem there is now wholesale admission that the persecutors were wrong. Will our history writers in 25 years time reflecting on when Western League Torquay United played in the Football League consider that the dismissal of the manager only half way through the season was the biggest mistake made in the history of the club? Or will we all be purchasing Easyjet tickets to Rome for our third consecutive Champions League final? Who knows. I'm not a betting man, but I have a fair idea how the bookmakers odds would look. Who is online
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