FA proposing League Structure changes

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 12 May 2014, 07:20

You could be right Yellowsmiffy. So we could expect a sterile travelling circus for some games and a morgue for others. Still no passion though, no purpose, no meaning, no hope. On your bike Dyke, we want to keep our competitive League, just feck off and resign.

chunkygull · Post by **chunkygull** » 12 May 2014, 16:02

Excellent interview with Craig Johnston here focusing on Greg Dykes proposals and the problems with developing young English talent and English footballs structure.The bloke really talks a lot of sense.

This is really worth a listen, had me shouting and swearing at my radio whilst driving, must have looked a right kn0b. :~D

http://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1399870800#

http://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1399870800#

I like the bit about what Arsene Wenger said where he exclaimed young talents would be better off putting in more work on their technique and skills rather than playing in this proposed league. Wise words Mr Wenger!

I remember one of our esteemed posters making this sort of comment (and getting stick for it) about Niall Thompson not so long ago and what he should be doing during some of his spare time.

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 13 May 2014, 15:13

A succinct, passionate article, which nails the most important point. League 3 with B teams will not solve the problem set out by the aptly named FA! :

http://www.thestar.co.uk/what-s-on/fa-c ... -1-6612536

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 13 May 2014, 16:04

gullintwoplaces wrote:Matt, are you seriously suggesting that the Premiership Reserve (B) teams would take fans to away games? Yes, I know that one in two of the Reserve sides might get reasonable home gates for some games, but away games? They get home gates because the first team is away and that is all. My argument that home games against these B teams would be sterile and pointless is, I maintain, valid.

What I wrote was emotive, but football is an emotional business. My emotion tells me that I would like Greg Dyke to move to Afghanistan with Danny Mills and the rest of the FA Commission.

You may well be right that the proposed mad change will happen anyway, but there is a lot of opposition and I am more hopeful than you are. The Premiership fans that want this change are, to me, despicable pieces of excrement.

I don't see why you'd presume that a side with a home attendance of, say, 4000 would fail to raise a single away supporter. Hyde FC, who get about 400 at home were still taking a minibus full to away games last year and that's to watch a side which managed 10 points all year.

I think a number of people would see it as a cheap way to follow their team without having to stump up for an expensive first team ticket. Once teams are established, the away following would follow pretty naturally. Ok, Stoke B might not bring many, but then, I doubt that we'll be seeing the away end opened for Halifax or Dover FC next season either.

For some sort of evidence of success of brand new teams with an attachment to an existing PL giant (I know the circumstances are somewhat different), have a look at FCUM, FC United of Manchester. Alright, they started off as a protest vote, but the initial excitement of it being something new has long since passed (remember the Ebbsfeet thing, 25,000 supporters in year one, about 600 in year two once the initial gloss of "owning shares in a football club" wore off) and they still get anywhere between 3 and 6 times the gates of everyone else. I can't find their away figures, but there's talk on the website of offering coach travel, except where demand fails to suffice (so the presumption is that a coach will run. That's the same situation as at Torquay). This is in the Evo-Stik, which is so far down the pyramid that I'm not even sure how far down they really are.

I think there are still, just, enough genuine football fans left at the top of the pyramid that away attendances would be comparable with the Conference. On that score, the argument against looks extremely weak. Elsewhere, it's stronger, and it's in those areas that any sensible objection to the proposals should be concentrated.

Matt.

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 13 May 2014, 16:29

To be honest Matt, the best argument against the proposal is that it would not achieve what it is on paper aiming to do (and I say on paper, as I suspect that the real reason why B Teams in our League have been proposed is for another reason entirely). What it sets out to do on paper is improve youth player development, and it would clearly fail to do this. Investment in coaching, facilities and giving promising young players a genuine opportunity to play in the Premiership is what is required. I was shocked when I saw the comparative numbers for qualified coaches in England compared to Spain. Italy and Germany, due to the neglect of the utterly crap FA.

The away team attendance argument is not the strongest, but there is no doubt that enormous damage would be done to lower division clubs. I would never pay to see Torquay play a reserve side in anything other than a friendly, I believe that such games would be sterile and meaningless. The best evidence is the negative impact of B teams in Europe, the FA Commission has not addressed this at all.

Lower division club fans should fight this with every means at our disposal. I agree that it may go through anyway, but we should make life very uncomfortable for Dyke and his mates in the meantime. I remember some years ago Brighton fans holding vigils outside the house of the scumbag that sold the Goldstone, he hated this, as would Dyke,

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 13 May 2014, 16:43

Now we're cooking with gas. It would fail miserably to do what it says it wants to do, and that's probably our best hope of stopping the plans in their tracks.
I know it would be different, and as Englishmen, we don't like change, but a league match against a B team would be just the same as a league match against Accrington Stanley. They're both worth three points and, from a personal point of view, I don't give a shit about either opponent.

Maybe we think differently as to the composition of these B teams? I imagine them full of promising young talent (of whom, perhaps 1% will ever get near the starting XI of the first team). Do you believe otherwise? I could well understand your malaise (and indeed, I'd support it) if I believed that the B teams would be made up of guys already on £150,000/week who are simply seeking fitness or some match time.

I know that Barca B play in Liga B (or whatever) and that Real Madrid Seconds exist, but that's as far as my understanding goes. What harm have they done to that national structure?

Matt.

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 13 May 2014, 16:59

Some evidence about Germany is in a previous comment. I believe that the situation in Spain is similar. The Germany article from 2007 is found through either of these links:

http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1177-may ... ague-clubs

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Eu ... -killer-bs

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » 13 May 2014, 23:07

ferrarilover wrote: For some sort of evidence of success of brand new teams with an attachment to an existing PL giant (I know the circumstances are somewhat different), have a look at FCUM, FC United of Manchester. Alright, they started off as a protest vote, but the initial excitement of it being something new has long since passed (remember the Ebbsfeet thing, 25,000 supporters in year one, about 600 in year two once the initial gloss of "owning shares in a football club" wore off) and they still get anywhere between 3 and 6 times the gates of everyone else. I can't find their away figures, but there's talk on the website of offering coach travel, except where demand fails to suffice (so the presumption is that a coach will run. That's the same situation as at Torquay). This is in the Evo-Stik, which is so far down the pyramid that I'm not even sure how far down they really are.

Talking of FCUM, there's a good piece on their website about these proposals.

http://fc-utd.co.uk/m_story.php?story_id=5524

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 13 May 2014, 23:29

Three excellent links, especially the one provided by Jerry. Recommended reading, since it's only short, but it gives a nice grounding as to the story behind the headlines. If the claims therein turn out to be true (I have about 80% confidence that they will), then the FA have got this decision almost as wrong as they possibly could have.

Matt.

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 14 May 2014, 08:32

The FCUM article posted by Jerry is excellent. Coherent, well argued and completely right. Just makes me hate Dyke and his cronies even more. I think that the level of anger amongst fans about this man and his pet dog Mills is very high indeed. They care as much for the fans as O'Leary from RyanAir cares about his passengers.

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 14 May 2014, 11:08

gullintwoplaces wrote:The FCUM article posted by Jerry is excellent. Coherent, well argued and completely right. Just makes me hate Dyke and his cronies even more. I think that the level of anger amongst fans about this man and his pet dog Mills is very high indeed. They care as much for the fans as O'Leary from RyanAir cares about his passengers.

Yes - the FCUM article should be essential reading for every lower league and conference fan. It's concise and very well written. There have also been some excellent Press articles against the proposal - even in the Daily Wail. Personally, I will support Torquay Utd come rain or shine even if, heaven forbid, we descended to Conference South. But if Dyke's proposal goes through, I shall turn my back on football because it reeks of Premiership greed. The current Pyramid system has evolved over many years and in my view is fair and works well so sod off Dykes and Mills & co.

PhilGull · Post by **PhilGull** » 14 May 2014, 11:55

I think it's worth pointing out that the Premier League declined an invite to join Dyke's panel. Premier League chief, Richard Scudamore has since come out in defence of the status quo, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27340856.

DTG · Post by **DTG** » 14 May 2014, 12:06

I am loving the irony of FL jacking off all enthusiastic about the B Team league and its promotion yet refuses to want or even acknowledge the sense of Marketing TUFC. Matt, dear boy, stick to carrying papers for other jumped up, self important chinless wonders.

DTG · Post by **DTG** » 14 May 2014, 12:11

I don't see why you'd presume that a side with a home attendance of, say, 4000 would fail to raise a single away supporter. Hyde FC, who get about 400 at home were still taking a minibus full to away games last year and that's to watch a side which managed 10 points all year.

I think a number of people would see it as a cheap way to follow their team without having to stump up for an expensive first team ticket. Once teams are established, the away following would follow pretty naturally. Ok, Stoke B might not bring many, but then, I doubt that we'll be seeing the away end opened for Halifax or Dover FC next season either.

For some sort of evidence of success of brand new teams with an attachment to an existing PL giant (I know the circumstances are somewhat different), have a look at FCUM, FC United of Manchester. Alright, they started off as a protest vote, but the initial excitement of it being something new has long since passed (remember the Ebbsfeet thing, 25,000 supporters in year one, about 600 in year two once the initial gloss of "owning shares in a football club" wore off) and they still get anywhere between 3 and 6 times the gates of everyone else. I can't find their away figures, but there's talk on the website of offering coach travel, except where demand fails to suffice (so the presumption is that a coach will run. That's the same situation as at Torquay). This is in the Evo-Stik, which is so far down the pyramid that I'm not even sure how far down they really are.

I think there are still, just, enough genuine football fans left at the top of the pyramid that away attendances would be comparable with the Conference. On that score, the argument against looks extremely weak. Elsewhere, it's stronger, and it's in those areas that any sensible objection to the proposals should be concentrated.

Matt.[/quote]

I am loving the irony of FL jacking off all enthusiastic about the B Team league and its promotion yet refuses to want or even acknowledge the sense of Marketing TUFC. Matt, dear boy, stick to carrying papers for other jumped up, self important chinless wonders.

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 14 May 2014, 12:13

PhilGull wrote:I think it's worth pointing out that the Premier League declined an invite to join Dyke's panel. Premier League chief, Richard Scudamore has since come out in defence of the status quo, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27340856.

Indeed, this might be due to split opinions in the Premiership. Arsenal Wenger does not appear to support the B team proposals and I guess there are others. It might also be that Scudamore knows that Dyke is on a loser and will let him hang himself. With a tosser like Danny Mills onside with Dyke, Scudamore may well be distancing himself from an idea heading for the rocks.

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