£300,000 Off The Wage Bill

[Neal]

I still think you are all missing my basic point. Which in my opinion is very clear.

The board choose the manager and yes have the final say on contracts.
The manager Knill in this argument was given the responsibility to choose players that would at least see us not be relegated.
The board gave him enough money.
HE FAILED. And we have been burdened with this crap this season.
I am defending CH and the board THIS SEASON.
Many of you lot want to start blaming the board and CH because actually I think you enjoy it.

The question was stupid and Im not retracting it. Im quite happy to keep on arguing the case as it gives me entertainment. You can if you so wish ignore my posts. I don't care!

As for internet rage, its because I have to keep repeating myself, it gets tiresome and boring!!

[kevgull]

Jack was sent off to market with a prized family cow and he came back with 5 beans!
I blame his parents for letting him take the cow to the market unsupervised.

[taxilady]

beans as in 'has-beens' ? :Oops: :}

[kevgull]

beans as in 'has-beens' ? :Oops: :}

[Kernowgull]

Jack was sent off to market with a prized family cow and he came back with 5 beans!
I blame his parents for letting him take the cow to the market unsupervised.

Nonsense. As a manager of a business (which I am) you are given a budget to spend. You spend this budget on staff, and things to ensure the staff can perform to the best of their ability. You then train and manage them to get results. If my MD started saying "you can't employ him or her" despite them falling in to my budget, I'd be mighty unhappy. If somebody or something is available, I try to convince the board to release the funds, highlighting the pro's and potential revenue this could generate.

Alan Knill would have been exactly the same. He had a budget, he spent it. He spent it bloody poorly, but having been entrusted with the job, and given a budget, its not down to the board as to who he spent it on. My biggest frustration is with football in general. If I balls up my budget and my team don't deliver, I'm out on my ear with maybe a months notice paid up.

The board are not Jacks parents, they are his employer. If you don't trust your employee to do his job (hit a target I.e. avoid relegation) then you don't employ him.

[Dave]

Neal thinks we missed his point, I didn't nor did anyone else I think, we just didn't agree with him. Completely agree with you Kernow, and that's the point I, and others have trying to make, no one can not blame Alan Knill and say his signings were to expensive, he only spent the budget agreed by the board, if the club has £5 AK asked for £10 the club still only has £5, if the board have agreed to let him spend more than they could afford, then it is the fault of the board.

Agreed it is up to the manager to employ the right people. Any manager in any organization with a vacancy to fill will advertise, sift through the applications draw up a shortlist and invite those to the interview process, they as you know will then select the most suitable candidate and offer the job, are you telling me you've never offered a job to someone and then regretted it , have you never thought I've made a mistake and chosen the wrong one, I'd be amazed if you haven't.

And that's the other point, Alan Knill spent the budget he had agreed by the board on players he thought would progress the club, some had played for him before, all of us fans agreed, we all applauded his signings, not one of us spoke up and said, why he's signed that waste of space and money, for what ever reason some of them didn't work out, that could be for a number reasons, not necessarily all down the manager and his training techniques, some players just don't settle at a new club, that happens at all levels, that also happens in business as well.

[PhilGull]

Neal thinks we missed his point, I didn't nor did anyone else I think, we just didn't agree with him. Completely agree with you Kernow, and that's the point I, and others have trying to make, no one can not blame Alan Knill and say his signings were to expensive, he only spent the budget agreed by the board, if the club has £5 AK asked for £10 the club still only has £5, if the board have agreed to let him spend more than they could afford, then it is the fault of the board.

Agreed it is up to the manager to employ the right people. Any manager in any organization with a vacancy to fill will advertise, sift through the applications draw up a shortlist and invite those to the interview process, they as you know will then select the most suitable candidate and offer the job, are you telling me you've never offered a job to someone and then regretted it , have you never thought I've made a mistake and chosen the wrong one, I'd be amazed if you haven't.

And that's the other point, Alan Knill spent the budget he had agreed by the board on players he thought would progress the club, some had played for him before, all of us fans agreed, we all applauded his signings, not one of us spoke up and said, why he's signed that waste of space and money, for what ever reason some of them didn't work out, that could be for a number reasons, not necessarily all down the manager and his training techniques, some players just don't settle at a new club, that happens at all levels, that also happens in business as well.

This is the important bit. As others have said, none of us were unhappy with Knill's signings at the time, all which seem to have been given an average League Two wage. I think the only thing we were really complaining about was the lack of a target man. The real problems with Knill appeared when the season started and we realised he was unable to get what was a decent squad playing anything like decent football.

I would actually take some of the blame for our current situation back further and say if Ling was any good he would have got us promoted to League One in his first season (when we had one of the best squads in the division including the best 'keeper of any club in either League Two or One and the best midfielder in all of League Two).

[AustrianAndyGull]

Dave, i agree in the main with your points but when you say that no fan spoke up when Knill signed all this rubbish that was because nobody was to know they would turn out that way. Knill himself couldn't know either but HE was the only one who was in a position to something about it either by improving them, motivating them or dropping them and having the bollocks to throw in some youngsters instead.

To be fair to the fans (we - as was then) highlighted time and time and time again that players we already knew about weren't doing their jobs properly and should not have been in the side. Players such as Bodin, Nicholson, to some extent Benyon and even Mansell et al yet Knill continued to keep them in the side. Adding to that those signings by Knill that turned out to be complete pants in the end didn't leave TUFC much chance at all of staying up.

If a player is not performing then maybe stick with it for a while, try to get to the bottom of it and if poor form continues then leave them out. If this is because they are just simply shit or are homesick then it doesn't matter, get them out of the team and don't carry on playing them.

So nobody was to know that Hawley, Chappel, Harding, Tonge and others would turn out to be complete duds. Hawley had a similar profile to Rene Howe in that he had shown potential a few years back although gradually slipping down the leagues and seemingly looking for an opportunity to get his career back on track. Rene took his chance with us but now may as well open a newsagents. Hawley failed big time to take his chance with us and is now plying his trade in front of 600 people and American 'investors' who somehow think that a Conference North club next season in a town the size of my brain is worth bothering with. That is Hawley. His career is effectively over.

Chappell was talked up as an exciting talent. The only talent i think he has is being a better version of Billy Bodin and he will end up playing for someone like Stocksbridge Park Steels whilst working for Royal Mail part time.

I could go on but i'll spare you.

If Knill signed a new player and anyone came on the forum slating said player for being shite before he'd even kicked a ball then i for one would have thought it a bit harsh and negative certainly, especially as Torquay generally have a history of signing players that fall into the 'has potential / lost his way - could be anything' category.

Like i said before, Ling sold some good players and left behind some poor, underperforming ones who Knill continued to play as well as adding some more poor underperforming players to the mix. These were then added to with even more atrocious loan signings and Danny Stevens by CH resulting in a squad totally devoid of any quality, any unity, any direction and any leaders. Endgame - Relegation. Three managers were culpable and not one capable of doing what they were paid for. I can slightly understand the circumstances around Ling but let's not forget that before he went sick the football for a long time was awful and so were the results. Subsequent managers just weren't competent enough and one is still at the helm which, like i said means that TUFC will never be able to reach anywhere near their potential at any given point.

As for the statement by Philgull regarding Ling failed when he should have got Torquay up in his first season. Granted TUFC had O'Kane and Olejnik but no way did they have one of the best squads in league 2. I just think that everyone clicked and some of those players that sunk under the pressure of being at the bottom last season soared under the confidence of somehow nicking 1-0 wins every week almost to the point that they felt invincible. Take York last season, by Christmas they were down the bottom yet went on an amazing run nicking wins 1-0 here and there (including v Torquay at BC) by playing some of the worst football seen by a York side in recent memory and with one of the more average squads (quotes by may York fans i've spoken to). They reached the play offs.

Confidence, structure and being well drilled is why Torquay reached the play offs under Ling and not because of 2 or 3 'better than average' players. So IMO Ling far from failed in his job in his first season. Anything but.

[Neal]

When a manager signs a new player. No one will know if they will work out. BUT... the bloody manager who signed them should be pretty damn confident and certain that they will. A football manager is meant to be the expert that's why he gets paid. Given that, if he signs several players who are crap, especially for a team like Torquay with limited funds, its then a complete disaster. And that's how it turned out. And its still a disaster the season.

I just find it incredible that anyone can defend Knill at all, AND try and put the blame on the board. I don't take that view, I think Thea and CH are doing their best. They are both new to this and I think we should cut them some slack.

[kevgull]

Can someone enlighten me as to whom,on the board , is able to act in the capacity of the Director of football role.
Someone that has a bit of football savy when it comes to ensuring we employ a decent manager or even a decent footballer on the right contract for Torquay?

Bottom line for me is that Ling gets sacked over the phone.
Knill ( the Squirrel) gets appointed.
The board spend a fortune on players that didn't do the business.
We leave it far too long to sack the idiot.
We then give a rookie manager 22 games (1/2 the season) due to cash flow problems.
We now find ourselves waiting for CH to make the grade as a manager whilst the parachute payment vanishes.
Have we hit rock bottom or are we on the up?

I'm sticking with my original post.

[Kernowgull]

Neal thinks we missed his point, I didn't nor did anyone else I think, we just didn't agree with him. Completely agree with you Kernow, and that's the point I, and others have trying to make, no one can not blame Alan Knill and say his signings were to expensive, he only spent the budget agreed by the board, if the club has £5 AK asked for £10 the club still only has £5, if the board have agreed to let him spend more than they could afford, then it is the fault of the board.

Agreed it is up to the manager to employ the right people. Any manager in any organization with a vacancy to fill will advertise, sift through the applications draw up a shortlist and invite those to the interview process, they as you know will then select the most suitable candidate and offer the job, are you telling me you've never offered a job to someone and then regretted it , have you never thought I've made a mistake and chosen the wrong one, I'd be amazed if you haven't.

And that's the other point, Alan Knill spent the budget he had agreed by the board on players he thought would progress the club, some had played for him before, all of us fans agreed, we all applauded his signings, not one of us spoke up and said, why he's signed that waste of space and money, for what ever reason some of them didn't work out, that could be for a number reasons, not necessarily all down the manager and his training techniques, some players just don't settle at a new club, that happens at all levels, that also happens in business as well.

Yes indeed forever, I have hired some disasters who I thought would be great, and also some who I wasnt sure about but took a punt on, who turned out great. There is one big difference. A disaster in the sales/business world, particularly when its down to attitude, can be binned off fairly easy. A footballer can't, so the manager needs to be more sure if spending a large chunk of the budget. The other difference being that footballers generally have either a proven pedigree, or a series of trials for the manager to make a decision, whereas I get a telephone interview and then a face to face, where people can bullsh#t their way through.

No manager ever, be it football or business, is going to get all their hires right. But I would go as far as to say Knill got them almost all wrong. That is unforgivable in any industry, the fact that Hawley, Tongue, Benyon etc had some pedigree but were terrible for us is Knills fault, whether it was because of the players or the way he managed them is up for debate, but who is to blame isn't.

[Neal]

"No manager ever, be it football or business, is going to get all their hires right. But I would go as far as to say Knill got them almost all wrong. That is unforgivable in any industry, the fact that Hawley, Tongue, Benyon etc had some pedigree but were terrible for us is Knills fault, whether it was because of the players or the way he managed them is up for debate, but who is to blame isn't."

Exactly my point!! Knill was paid to get these right, HE DIDNT, AND...... we still have the legacy today which is affecting the current squad. That's the point that many just cannot grasp!

Someone mentioned a director of football. Well the last one we had most of you moaned about! And, ok we can get one, but I would think that they would want paying, so that's 2 more players off the squad then.

It all sounds so easy doesn't it, just do x and it will be ok, but everything costs money!!!! Come on Thea put your hand in your pocket again because some of us fans know how to do it better. CH said in the Herald this week that if the truth was known how much she puts in we would be shocked, I believe that. AND without her we would probably not exist at all by now or be part time.

[Neal]

"Have we hit rock bottom or are we on the up?"

Probably not no, BUT... if the results against 2 Conf South teams are anything to go by we are at about the lowest we could go given our performances and attendances we still get. But you can always do worse and do better in any given short period. In the longer term I think we are a league 2 bottom half / top 6 or 7 conf team. Every now and again we finish the odd season in the league 2 playoffs and finish below 6th or 7th in the conf. So in my opinion we are close to rock bottom. You can view that in a doom or gloom way OR that the only way is up!

I was actually surprised that Bromley didn't offer more, because my very un scientific view is the top 2 or 3 clubs of any division could probably hack it in the league above.

[AustrianAndyGull]

"No manager ever, be it football or business, is going to get all their hires right. But I would go as far as to say Knill got them almost all wrong. That is unforgivable in any industry, the fact that Hawley, Tongue, Benyon etc had some pedigree but were terrible for us is Knills fault, whether it was because of the players or the way he managed them is up for debate, but who is to blame isn't."

Exactly my point!! Knill was paid to get these right, HE DIDNT, AND...... we still have the legacy today which is affecting the current squad. That's the point that many just cannot grasp!

Someone mentioned a director of football. Well the last one we had most of you moaned about! And, ok we can get one, but I would think that they would want paying, so that's 2 more players off the squad then.

It all sounds so easy doesn't it, just do x and it will be ok, but everything costs money!!!! Come on Thea put your hand in your pocket again because some of us fans know how to do it better. CH said in the Herald this week that if the truth was known how much she puts in we would be shocked, I believe that. AND without her we would probably not exist at all by now or be part time.

I grasp you Neal, although not physically obviously - that would be a scene. :Oops: But yeah, i totally understand where you are coming from re: Knill and how he failed.

I think Knill failed all ends up not just because of the calibre of player he signed but also because he also continued to include some of Ling's leftovers with alarming regularity, even when they were not performing week after week after week.

This was either because Knill had managed them appallingly or because they were quite simply not good enough and even when it was quite clear they weren't good enough or have never produced the goods they still got game time.

Players that were managed appallingly like Mansell who seems to have a new lease of life at Brizzle, a life sucked from him by the monotonous drabness that is AK Management. Nico the same, possibly his worst season last and now enjoying life away from the poison that is TUFC at Kiddy. The West Midlands side being 4 points clear of Torquay with a game in hand.

Damon Lathrope never got a look in under Knill and was farmed out to Hereford despite it becoming increasingly clear that he was urgently required in the middle of the park and despite the fact that he was one of the better more reliable players in the squad. He is now at Aldershot but i believe he is at least middle table league 2 quality.


Players who were not good enough and were often given game time despite previously offering nothing were players like Elliot Benyon who also was left over from the Ling / Taylor regime despite not being in form for the past 4 years. When he left Torquay for Swindon in Jan 2011 he had scored 46 goals in 88 appearances in all comps for Torquay. At Swindon, Southend and Wycombe he totalled less than 5 goals for those three clubs and then came back to Torquay on a full time basis where he scored 3 in 24 appearances in a side that badly needed goals. He is now at Hayes & Yeading on loan.

Tom Cruise, from Arsenal to Arse. Not me, the words of Father Jack. If i continued on that basis then it would be quite clear that the next word that would most aptly describe the feelings of Torquay fans last season whenever he was in the line up would be FECK.

One of the worst full backs i've seen and i think conference level is even stretching his levels of ability. Another poor player left behind from the Ling regime that AK continued to deploy despite him being consistently bad.

Obviously Billy Bodin was available to Knill despite showing absolutely nothing in the season before. Knill had to play him to be fair to see if he could find the magic formula with Billy. I get that. I don't get sticking with a player that had shown nothing the previous season and then begins the new season in the same vein. It is like playing with 10 men half the time and given AK persisted with other players who were poor week in week out (not just Billy) then i dare say in some games it appeared that Torquay were playing with 8 men or less on an all too regular basis.

So these are the players Ling left that AK had to work with BEFORE he signed his own. I can kind of slightly understand that to a certain extent that AK had to play certain players due to injury / suspension which he tried to address by bringing in loanees. Anthony O'Connor, John Marquis and Paul McCallum perhaps being the stand outs but offset by Callum Ball, Adebayo Azeez. AK didn't do too badly with his loanees to be fair. It was more his permanent signings that caused the problems.

Also AK had a small squad therefore if 4,5,6 players were not good enough or underperforming most weeks then it would be difficult and disruptive to drop them all. Not least because who would come in to replace them?

This is management though. Like Neal says, he was PAID good money to make decisions and to get results. The only management decision i saw Alan execute was to try and get out of a hole that he couldn't fill by bringing in loan players at a further cost to the club. McCallum helped get the win at Bury as well as notching a couple more and O'Connor shored up the defence a bit. He simply could not manage the players he had at his disposal and as Torquay aren't Real Madrid, the option to buy his way out of failure wasn't there.

During the summer Alan appeared to take an age in adding to the squad. Perfectly understandable given the pressure each prospective player is under to relocate such a distance for such little money. That said, hearing reports of what some of his signings were on may have made this decision a bit easier.

Courtney Cameron came in and although still a young lad, it was soon clear he was struggling to produce the standard required for league 2 football. Failed signing.

Jordan Chappell arrived with a promising reputation and an interesting future. A tricky little winger seemingly with an end product. Seeing him hit his brace up at Sixfields early on in the season excited me greatly. Sadly i can honestly say that that second half at Northampton was the highlight of the season. Torquay never again to my knowledge hit those heights or anywhere near again. Obvioulsy i missed the Pompey win so i guess that compared.

Chappell (the promising footballer) basically disappeared off the face of the planet after this and i have absolutely no idea why. Maybe AK knows? Failed signing.

Karl Hawley came in, a man with a once predatory instinct in front of the onion bag most notably at Carlisle where he banged them in left right and centre. Again like Chappell, i was lucky enough to witness the one decent thing produced in a full season and that was his curler up at Morecambe in the first away game. Again, after that, Hawley (the once prolific goalgetter) basically disappeared off the face of the earth. AK still carried on starting him for a long time before realising about 10 games after the fans did that he was never going to score again or never really offered any danger. Now at Alfreton. Failed signing.

Dale Tonge, a man with a pretty solid lower league pedigree. Got forward loads at Morecambe before getting sent off and after that i don't think he passed the half way line again thus always giving the opposition little option but to attack him at will as he sat deeper and deeper. Why didn't Knill tell him to overlap anymore? Has the turning circle of the QE2 and the awareness of a blind rabbit. Failed signing.

Ben Harding came in too having helped Northampton reach the play offs in his previous season. If this bloke was bald then Torquay would have been in business but spent half the game stroking his hair and the other half jockeying players despite standing 85 miles away from them. Started the season as though he was invisible and got worse. AK stuck with him and i believe he got injured. Sad that it takes an injury to improve the side and not a great managerial decision to change things. Failed signing.

The young lads like Sullivan, Yeoman etc were not given a fair chance either.

IMO Knill did make one decent signing and that is Krystian Pearce but even Knill tried to diminish his confidence by starting him then dropping him then starting him then dropping him and so on and so forth.

So Knill FAILED to manage existing players properly and FAILED to manage his own players properly.

Given this, the next decision was critical.

The board had to sack Knill surely?

They did so but IMO and many others i don't doubt far too late. It was obvious in October that he looked totally inept as highlighted by performances and results.

Having said that though, the decision to appoint CH was the one which relegated TUFC regardless of timing. If CH had of taken over in October then TUFC will still have been relegated IMO.

To be totally blunt, when Knill went Torquay needed to stick someone in the hot seat who knew what the **** they were doing from day one. Someone with experience and someone who had something about them to shake things up. It would have cost money for sure but like Dave (forever) said on another post - chucking money at staying up was essential. Now look at things. If TUFC had stayed up then any outlay would be easier to deal with eventually.

Obviously there was always the chance that the club could have chucked money at someone and Torquay would still have gone down. If that was the case then how would things be any different to how they are now?

As a consequence of all this, TUFC are now managed by a man who clearly, despite his rawness hasn't the nous nor man management skills to become a successful manager. That means that Torquay United cannot progress so how is that better than being in the same boat but with less money should it have been ploughed into trying to save league status last season?

I did have some sympathy with Chris at first but at the end of the day he made all the media soundbites, he convinced the board he was the right man for the job (not sure if his interview technique won them over or the fact that he wanted a weekly packet of skips as a salary) and he let down the fans.

If the board simply had NOTHING with which to appoint a new manager then that's fair enough. Knill AND Ling had to be paid off and contracts of players had to be honoured. They chose Chris as a cheap option and it went wrong. If they WERE in a position to find the cash somehow to get in a renowned old head for the run in then they have mugged the fans off true and proper. I simply do not know which is the case so i cannot comment either way on what was right or wrong. Only they know.

The point is that the club are struggling and have a man in charge who had nearly half season to keep Torquay up. I believe he signed up Shaun Cooper who was the footballing equivalent of the Marie Celeste, he re-signed Danny Stevens to what end i simply have no idea, he added Conor Wilkinson, Aiden O'Brien, Jayden Stockley and Enoch Showunmi and offered fans who had set off for Hartlepool at about 4am spending lots of cash..........................a free pint.

I saw worse performances under CH than Knill and his response to being backs against the wall was to do nothing. Now he openly criticises players in public and shows little sign of learning tactically or exercising common sense.

Like i said before, Knill, Ling, Hargreaves, the board, the fans, gilbert, a sausage roll, keith chegwin or whatever or whoever. I think everyone had a part to play in relegation, although not sure about the sausage roll. I know for a fact that Keith Chegwin was hired to fire off motivational speeches before matches as he had energy and positivity and didn't care what clothes he wore. Can't say the same about CH i'm afraid.

The TUST is a great thing and must be enquired about. Not just that though, a group needs to be formed to be in some sort of position to prop up the club financially short term if anything went wrong. It's not just about helping to sign a player but it's about having a short term back up for when Thea decides enough is enough.

I don't know the lady but i can imagine that chucking cash at nobodies for no reward could soon become tiresome and could soon become a thing of the past meaning the club needs a back up.

The TUST or any organisation created to secure the short term future of the club if anything went wrong is vital. The above highlights a lot of negatives but now is a time for moving forward that all yellows should embrace. Only you can make it happen.

Like Neal says, GRASP it and be proud and part of it. Do it for yourselves, your club and your town.

[Gullscorer]

Andy, an excellent summary (if that's the right word.. :~D ) of events over the past two or three seasons, except for one thing: your assessment of CH and his abilities as manager is absolute bollocks..!!

CH has let nobody down. He has been manager for just a year in his first managerial post and it's far too soon to judge him as a failure. He's currently on course to emulate Paul Buckle's record of an FA Trophy final in his first season and promotion via the play-offs in his second, and on a fraction of the budget of any of his predecessors, one could even say a zero budget.

And there are still sixteen league games to be played this season, so if the lads reproduce their early season form it's still possible to make the play-offs, perhaps even making it a double, of promotion and the FA Trophy this season. If that seems overly optimistic, I need only point out that sort of scenario has been achieved before. It's certainly not impossible to recover from our present league position. CH has worked wonders to bring in the players he has, young players with potential who can only get better, on (I remind you again) a zero budget.

Yes of course CH has made a few mistakes in his first year (what manager hasn't?), but to say he has let us down is a nonsense. Even if we finish the season mid-table, it cannot possibly be said that he's a failure, given the circumstances and the restraints within which he has had to work. I should be quite happy with mid-table this season, with the promise of better to come next time. Obviously, anything more would be a welcome bonus, but as things stand now, we should fully support CH and the team all the way.

They deserve nothing less..