The European Union: We're out...!!!

[Gullscorer]

The pro-EU propaganda onslaught begins: a leaflet was pushed through my door this morning, published by the ‘Britain Stronger in Europe’ campaign (http://www.strongerin.co.uk/). Doubtless the anti-EU campaign will follow soon.

You may disagree, but to me, not unexpectedly, this leaflet contains irrelevant truths, insidious half-truths, and outrageous opinions masquerading as facts (some would call them lies). Time does not permit me to pick apart these abominations in detail now, but I’ve no doubt the Britain Out campaign will deal with them most effectively, and I’m sure all the issues will be discussed in detail over the coming months, not least, presumably, by UKIP: http://www.ukip.org/a_contagion_is_spre ... oss_europe

To my mind, however, David Cameron’s negotiations, the terms of membership, and all the pros and cons of in or out, are red herrings. The real issue is one of principle: the UK needs to control not only its own borders, but its own destiny.

Over the course of the campaign I expect most, if not all, the pro-EU arguments to be shot down completely, and I hope to make my own contribution here, time and health permitting. However, you may think the case for staying in is invincible. Or you may think the whole in/out question is all finely balanced.

Make your views known on this thread. There’s no rush: the referendum may not take place until 2017.

[Orange Gull]

As I'm abroad I haven't seen the leaflet from Stronger In. Does it have a main list of reasons to stay in? If so I wouldn't mind seeing what they've come up with.

[Gullscorer]

It's basically scare tactics, some of which you'll see on their website: http://www.strongerin.co.uk/ , and which I'm sure will be fully debated over the months ahead.

[Southampton Gull]

It's part of the greater plan to create superstates like Europe to make us all easier to control. Whether we should stay or leave is neither here nor there, the powers that be will make damned sure we don't.

Personally I think it was the worst thing we could have done to join the "common market".

[PhilGull]

Both the innies and outies are full of lies and half-truths.
At the moment I am undecided how to vote but at the end of the day I don't see it making a massive difference to my life or to the lives of those around me. We will still be kept just happy enough to keep plodding along, paying our taxes, keeping the rich rich and the poor poor.

[Dave]

Tend to agree with SG here. Cant see the powers that be every letting us leave even if the country votes yes, there will be a new referendum with a different question until we vote to stay in.

For me the sooner we get out of the EU the better, leaving the EU will not effect jobs or the economy in a negative way, if you want our country to control it's borders and stop discriminating against commonwealth countries on immigration as it does now, in favour of white eastern European's who bring little or no benefit to this country, apart from the odd medic and decent builder, a lot of them are in jobs that pay £11,500 or less, so pay no tax, then vote to leave.

If you our own country to control it's defence policy then we need to get out of the EU, the powers that be in Germany want and will get an EU army.

Even the anti-British Marxist traitor once voted against the EU.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1185964 ... -1975.html

[Orange Gull]

Tend to agree with SG here. Cant see the powers that be every letting us leave even if the country votes yes, there will be a new referendum with a different question until we vote to stay in.

I believe that Cameron has ruled out a two referendum strategy, the backlash on him if we were to vote out and remain in would be enormous. The government's position would be untenable.

As for some of the arguments put forward by Stronger In, I do wish they and others would stop using this absurd "3 million jobs" figure. This is a figure from 2003 and yes it is true that a certain number of jobs are indeed connected to our trade with the EU, but that's the important word, connected, not dependent. Stronger In are obviously trying to get it into people's minds that if we leave those 3 million jobs will vanish. This is nonsense and they know it. We will not suddenly stop trading with the EU, no one is suggesting that we will. The stakes are simply too high for both sides not to arrange a free trade deal between Britain and the EU. There are arguments for staying in the EU and there are arguments for leaving. However, bogus scare tactics like this does no one any favours.

I'll address more of the Stronger In reasons for staying in some time later.

[Scott Brehaut]

In or out makes no difference to me, given that I'm a multi-millionaire, tax dodging, cigar smoking, wine drinking, Guernseyman, who owns several mansions along the cliffs of Guernsey, and remain outside of the EU....

[Gullscorer]

In or out makes no difference to me, given that I'm a multi-millionaire, tax dodging, cigar smoking, wine drinking, Guernseyman, who owns several mansions along the cliffs of Guernsey, and remain outside of the EU....

I'll bet that's what they thought before Hitler's Nazis occupied the islands..

[Dave]

Cameron rules out and says a lot of things and often does different. Just out of interest.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... n-10769248#

[PhilGull]

It will be interesting to see how the debate plays out in the South West. I'm wondering how the outies are planning to fix the massive blackhole that would be left by the billions of pounds in subsidy received by fishermen, farmers, pastie makers et al disappearing...

[Gullscorer]

Billions in subsidies, Phil? Really? Are you aware that the UK pays billions more to the EU than it receives? If we left the EU, the UK could still pay those subsidies to its own people. and also save the billions in net contributions it makes to the EU. Moreover, we could claim back the fishing grounds which are rightly ours but which EU fleets have over-fished, and (correct me if I'm wrong) we would not be required to contribute to the Common Agricultural Policy which overwhelmingly benefits European farmers. This report came out in 2010, but little has changed since: http://www.ukipmeps.org/uploads/file/Co ... 5_5_11.pdf

[Gulliball]

Have heard some inside whispers that Cameron is looking to hold the referendum as soon as June and no later than September this year. I imagine this will depend on how well he does getting what he wants whilst negotiating this month.

Personally I am in favour of the union. I like Europe, Europeans, freedom of travel and freedom of work as a principle. No system that large will be ideal or without negatives, but I think we are far better staying in and working to constantly adapt, evolve and improve it, for a British perspective, than being totally outside without any of that.

[Dave]

The UK buy's more from the EU than it sells too the EU.

We do pay in more than we receive back and this has been the case for 32 years according to this.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... -back.html

[Gullscorer]

And don't confuse the European Union with Europe. Even before the EU existed, Brits were travelling and working abroad, in Europe and beyond, and foreigners were living and working here. A vast number of Europeans also want to leave the EU, because they want their countries back, and because they too see the EU as undemocratic and corrupt, and don't trust their own leaders.

As Forever has said, EU countries sell more to the UK than we sell to them; they stand to lose more than we do if we leave; they will be more than happy to negotiate a smooth transition, if only for the sake of their own exports to the UK. If we left the European Union, little would change, except that we would make our own laws, make our own trade agreements with the rest of the world in addition to Europe, control our own borders, and control our own destiny. None of which precludes continuing friendly relations with the rest of Europe.