Hillsborough Verdicts

madgull · Post by **madgull** » 26 Apr 2016, 14:23

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-35401436

Okay, I can understand how they decided that the fans were unlawfully killed, but to find that there was NOT any behaviour on the part of the supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation has left me utterly baffled. Did the fans get crushed by magic, then? Am I missing something here?

Post by **Gulliball** » 26 Apr 2016, 17:44

I think the point is that too many fans were in the stadium as a direct result of the police's actions to open and close gates. There was nowhere to go, and as a result people were crushed to death. Regardless of any behaviour within that, those circumstances should never have been allowed to happen, and indeed laws were introduced in the aftermath to ensure that it never happened again. There has been bad behaviour in football stadiums since, but no-one has been crushed to death, so you can't link the actions of the supporters and the deaths.

What is equally as disturbing is the lies and cover-ups that were put in place to protect senior figures. The burden of blame was laid with the fans and it has taken 27 years to expose the truth.

Worth a read: http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... ed-decades

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 26 Apr 2016, 18:58

There was never going to ever be any different verdict. The media frenzy and publicity that has surrounded the inquest would never allow it.

I've commented my feelings on this before and as Madgull says, it's a joke that the fans have been exonerated of ANY blame whatsoever. Yes there were a number of terrible mistakes made, but none were purposely done, we are all human.
If the coppers did cover things up (and it seems certain that they did) then they are guilty of such, but none of them were trying to force their way into the ground (a well known ploy of Liverpool fans and rumoured still to be going on to this day), none were drunk (yes, I worked with an eye witness who saw this first hand) and none were ticketless (anyone who thinks there weren't any ticketless fans there that day are kidding themselves).

Before anyone thinks I'm heartless or talking crap my heart went out to the poor buggers who perished, the majority who got there early, got a good view behind the goal on one of the barriers and suffered due to the crush from their own fans.

I do hope they prove me massively wrong, but I'm pretty certain now that the South Yorkshire Chief Constable has admitted liability, in the next few days the 'C' word will raise its ugly head.

Post by **Gulliball** » 26 Apr 2016, 20:36

You should read the article above. Reports of forced turnstiles, ticketless fans and drunk supporters were a police fiction - the police lied to the BBC, to journalists, politicians and the Taylor report, and only admitted this in 2015. The crush was caused by the opening of an exit gate that should not have been opened and forced all the fans into the central enclosures - and this was also only admitted in 2015. For 26 years they deliberately let everyone think it was ticketless and drunk fans that caused the crushes, when it was the police who opened the exit gate and led to the deaths. More than 30 of the 96 who died were the LAST ones into the stadium because this gate was opened.

If you're sticking to your pre 2015 opinions then that just shows how closed minded you are to this case. If an admission of guilt, admission of lying about the fans' behaviour, and a 2 year investigation into the causes isn't enough to make you re-think things, then more fool you. It's the reason why the lie was so effective in the first place - drunk football yobs causing a crush just sounds so plausible and there are plenty like you who will accept it no matter what.

96 people died, just ruled unlawfully, because of several failures of duty, and the truth was covered up to protect those who were guilty. Of course this isn't the end of things.

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 27 Apr 2016, 17:54

Gulliball wrote:You should read the article above. Reports of forced turnstiles, ticketless fans and drunk supporters were a police fiction - the police lied to the BBC, to journalists, politicians and the Taylor report, and only admitted this in 2015. The crush was caused by the opening of an exit gate that should not have been opened and forced all the fans into the central enclosures - and this was also only admitted in 2015. For 26 years they deliberately let everyone think it was ticketless and drunk fans that caused the crushes, when it was the police who opened the exit gate and led to the deaths. More than 30 of the 96 who died were the LAST ones into the stadium because this gate was opened.

If you're sticking to your pre 2015 opinions then that just shows how closed minded you are to this case. If an admission of guilt, admission of lying about the fans' behaviour, and a 2 year investigation into the causes isn't enough to make you re-think things, then more fool you. It's the reason why the lie was so effective in the first place - drunk football yobs causing a crush just sounds so plausible and there are plenty like you who will accept it no matter what.

96 people died, just ruled unlawfully, because of several failures of duty, and the truth was covered up to protect those who were guilty. Of course this isn't the end of things.

I'm not close minded Gulliball, and neither ironically am I gullible, I'm realistic.

There's been another cover up-the behaviour of the fans! Workmates living in and around Hillsborough opened their doors to them, and one said they were lining up in his garden to pee and staggering around, some could barely stand. Source? As stated, a workmate. One of the pubs in Hillsborough (The Timber Top I think) was ransacked and the staff had to lock themselves in the living quarters. Source? A mate who was a regular in the pub.
Two turnstile operators on the day have stated that they were not requested to give evidence at the inquests, yet had done in the previous one where both they (and one of the sargeants on the Leppings Lane ) said the Liverpool fans were the worst they had ever had to deal with. Source? The Taylor report and the original inquest (their words, I haven't read it) and they have been on the Wednesday forum this week (albeit unable to repeat what they said at the original inquests for legal reasons apparently).

Do you really believe that none of the Liverpool fans were drunk or ticketless? I've just seen this....

Michael Eborall
Yesterday at 14:42 Â·
"Feel so sorry for the 96 innocent fans who died at Hillsborough and I admire how their families have sought to find justice for them. Yea the police and authorities could have been better , yea the Leps was a bad design but the simple FACT is without hundreds of fans without tickets storming the turnstiles these fans would still be here. Went to the game with some Forest mates had to walk past hundreds of drunk scousers outside Jockey and Park Hotel, witnessed them charging police bout 2.40. Hundreds of Liverpool fans got in without tickets, not one has held his hand up and said yea we to blame as well. Total whitewash this report as we all new it would be, I will probably be slagged of for this but I want to scream when I hear shit that has been written about the day, a lot of us know the truth but its not the truth Liverpool want to hear"

If so you're name I'm afraid to say my friend, is very apt.

Post by **Gulliball** » 27 Apr 2016, 18:21

Drunk and ticketless fans was the story published at the time to divert the blame away from the real cause of the deaths. In case you have missed it, the police officer responsible said this earlier today:

Mr Duckenfield said that, in the pressure of the day, he froze and did not consider the consequences of his actions.

"I think it's fair to say that it is arguably one of the biggest regrets of my life, that I did not foresee where fans would go when they came in through the gates," he said.

He also admitted to a "terrible lie". "Everybody knew the truth, the fans and police knew the truth that we'd opened the gates," he said.

The former chief superintendent said he "deeply regretted" not telling then-FA chief executive Graham Kelly that it was his decision that caused the fatal crush saying he would regret the lie "to his dying day".

There was a very specific reason why the people died - a gate was opened that diverted everyone into one area that was not large enough to cope. It took 26 years to admit that this was the cause of the deaths. Instead lies were spread that fans had broken down gates and forced their way in, and every single dead body had a blood sample taken (including a ten year old child) in a desperate search for any 'proof' that drunken fans were to blame.

The behaviour of the Liverpool fans on this day was no different to any other football match of the period. The 96 deaths were a result of the stadium layout (a ground which did not have a safety certificate) and a mistake by the police officer in charge (who hadn't been to the ground in the previous 10 years and had no previous experience controlling a football match). This was known at the time and was deliberately covered up, with the football fans smeared instead to take the blame. If the man responsible has finally admitted this 27 years later then surely you can.

Post by **Gulliball** » 27 Apr 2016, 18:26

EmetEdadsBeard wrote: the simple FACT is without hundreds of fans without tickets storming the turnstiles these fans would still be here.

This quite literally never happened. The police opened the gate, as admitted above. Also as admitted above, they knew they had done this at the time but covered it up and placed the blame on the fans.

The fact that it is so believable is why it's taken 27 years to reach yesterday's verdict, but it's no reason to keep peddling the same lies.

PhilGull · Post by **PhilGull** » 27 Apr 2016, 18:34

Whether some fans were drunk or not, whether all fans had tickets or not, the 96 deaths were not the fault of the fans. The police, the ambulance service, Sheff Wed, contractors, etc were to blame for 96 people dying.

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 28 Apr 2016, 07:31

Gulliball, you've followed the 'party line' that states NONE of the Liverpool fans were drunk (despite the fact that many people not only the police said many were, and we aren't talking about the ones that died but the ones arriving late from the loval pubs) and ALL of them had a ticket. Did you read any of my posts?

You also have no idea of the layout of the ground either if you think the gate that was opened (bad decision but made to try to prevent possible injury or even death outside the ground) diverted everyone to the tunnel entrance to the central central pen. It doesn't.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 28 Apr 2016, 07:35

I've seen videos that clearly show the fans rushing in and also their previous and subsequent behaviour. It was and still is a ploy Liverpool fans use to get into the game without paying.

Totally in agreement with Emet who knows a lot more about this than some who just read reports and make up their minds.

The Police were wrong to open a gate, what they didn't do was rush in themselves just to get in for free.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 28 Apr 2016, 07:36

PhilGull wrote:Whether some fans were drunk or not, whether all fans had tickets or not, the 96 deaths were not the fault of the fans. The police, the ambulance service, Sheff Wed, contractors, etc were to blame for 96 people dying.

There are fans still alive who are more at fault than the Police ever were.

Post by **Gulliball** » 28 Apr 2016, 13:17

I would urge you to read this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-35462767

The location of the stadium next to the river and more than 10 000 fans going through 7 turnstiles created a bottleneck and crowds developing. It had happened before at the Stadium and there was no plan in place to deal with the crowding. The police officer in charge had not visited the stadium, did not understand what would happen when he opened the gate and did not respond at all in the three minutes he had to remedy his actions. There were these very specific reasons why the 96 people died that day and not at any of the other games in the surrounding decades when drinking and violence were commonplace.

If you haven't changed your minds about the disaster based on the admissions in court since 2015 then you never will. But for the families involved, they have now proven to the world what the real cause of deaths were - which for the previous 27 years had been deliberately covered up.

yellowforever · Post by **yellowforever** » 28 Apr 2016, 13:40

Some of the comments on this thread are astounding - still foisting blame on the Liverpool fans after the verdicts and completely misunderstanding the point. It doesn't matter if one person was drunk, or if all of them were, the CAUSE of this tragedy was the opening of that gate, which was completely down to the police and organisation within Sheffield Wednesday.

Having one or two eyewitnesses at the game that claim that the Liverpool fans were in the wrong is just silly - a member of my extended family was at the game in the Wednesday end, and offers a very different account to some of the postings on this thread.

Really surprised by some of the opinions on this thread, Gulliball being perhaps the only one offering a sensible opinion.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 28 Apr 2016, 14:02

What nonsense, of course it matters whether some were drunk or not. There are a host of contributing factors and some of them do lie with a section of their fans. Yes the Police made mistakes but did them under pressure because of the actions of dozens of fans, Nobody set out to kill anyone, if Liverpool fans could queue in an orderly fashion like the majority of others then this needn't have happened. They have a reputation home and abroad for forcing entry into grounds and that is overlooked simply because the Police tried to cover up their mistakes.

Until you've been in the position of trying to control disorderly fans you can't imagine just how difficult it can be.

Yes the Police were at fault but to say the Liverpool fans were blameless is what is actually ridiculous.

PhilGull · Post by **PhilGull** » 28 Apr 2016, 14:12

Oh for **** sake. Some people need to open their eyes and ears. THE POLICE LIED. THEY ARE LIARS. IT WAS THE ACTIONS OF THE POLICE, THE AMBULANCE SERVICE, SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEATHS OF 96 INNOCENT PEOPLE. The fans were not at fault. NONE OF THE FANS WERE AT FAULT.
Hopefully over the coming months we will see people caught and punished for what they did. Hopefully we will for the first time, see a high ranking police officer actually go to prison for comitting a crime, something which will hopefully set a precedent and allow us to move away from seeing police oficers who break the law simply retire and not face any punishment.

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