Hillsborough Verdicts

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 28 Apr 2016, 14:20

Some people obviously haven't seen the video of the fans and their actions on that horrible day.

As for the punishments for the Police, that I totally agree with.

TUST_Member_Rob · Post by **TUST_Member_Rob** » 28 Apr 2016, 16:03

Gulliball wrote:I would urge you to read this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-35462767

Point 5 - lessons not learnt

That stadium was not fit for purpose and the 'near misses' previously not acted on -

a big problem that of course people turn a blind eye to

PhilGull · Post by **PhilGull** » 28 Apr 2016, 16:20

TUST_Member_Rob wrote: Point 5 - lessons not learnt

That stadium was not fit for purpose and the 'near misses' previously not acted on -

a big problem that of course people turn a blind eye to

Well now the truth is out hopefully people will no longer turn a blind eye to these things. The work and word of engineers and contractors will be double checked and never again will we see a stadium with the possibility for anything like this to happen again.

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 28 Apr 2016, 17:12

This whole subject is making my p155 boil. They could have saved two years worth of hearings, there was never any doubt that this would be the outcome and the fans would be totally absolved of blame.
I've been to Hillsborough 100s of times, even when the ground held 65,000 and I'm still in one piece. I've been to a league cup final there, play off's, the lot.
And no one has ever died at the ground at any of these matches, it held FA Cup semi finals for decades without anything on this scale, even in the days of mass hooliganism, so how did it suddenly become unsafe?
Gulliball, it's always been next to the River Don, it didn't mystically materialise in 1989 so that reasoning isn't relevant whatsoever (and yet again, if you knew the layout of the ground you would know that only a small minority enter the ground area over the bridge).

I'm going to say it again, what was different this time ? Dave hits the nail on the head, plenty of Liverpool fans played a major part in what happened. Anyone who has ever been to a match involving Liverpool will know, they are far from the 'jolly wisecracking loveable Scousers' the media makes them out to be. They aren't known around here as 'Victimpool' and 'Compopool' for nothing, and Stanley 'knife' Park is very aptly named.
Yes the police made a massive mistake and lied to cover it up but they aren't solely to blame for the events. The fact is (and this is a fact) that Liverpool bashing isn't allowed, not in the press, media or anywhere for that matter, and the inquest was never going to acknowledge the fans part in this tragedy.

And Lo and behold, before the ink on the verdicts has dried in has gone 100s of compensation claims in a class action suit against the police. This after claiming, and I quote Trevor Hickey "it's not about compensation, it's about justice".

Well they got the 'justice' they demanded, so why the claims?

Class action? The immediate claims for compensation shows they haven't got any.

TUST_Member_Rob · Post by **TUST_Member_Rob** » 28 Apr 2016, 17:58

EmetEdadsBeard wrote:This whole subject is making my p155 boil. They could have saved two years worth of hearings, there was never any doubt that this would be the outcome and the fans would be totally absolved of blame.
I've been to Hillsborough 100s of times, even when the ground held 65,000 and I'm still in one piece. I've been to a league cup final there, play off's, the lot.
And no one has ever died at the ground at any of these matches, it held FA Cup semi finals for decades without anything on this scale, even in the days of mass hooliganism, so how did it suddenly become unsafe?
Gulliball, it's always been next to the River Don, it didn't mystically materialise in 1989 so that reasoning isn't relevant whatsoever (and yet again, if you knew the layout of the ground you would know that only a small minority enter the ground area over the bridge).

I'm going to say it again, what was different this time ? Dave hits the nail on the head, plenty of Liverpool fans played a major part in what happened. Anyone who has ever been to a match involving Liverpool will know, they are far from the 'jolly wisecracking loveable Scousers' the media makes them out to be. They aren't known around here as 'Victimpool' and 'Compopool' for nothing, and Stanley 'knife' Park is very aptly named.
Yes the police made a massive mistake and lied to cover it up but they aren't solely to blame for the events. The fact is (and this is a fact) that Liverpool bashing isn't allowed, not in the press, media or anywhere for that matter, and the inquest was never going to acknowledge the fans part in this tragedy.

And Lo and behold, before the ink on the verdicts has dried in has gone 100s of compensation claims in a class action suit against the police. This after claiming, and I quote Trevor Hickey "it's not about compensation, it's about justice".

Well they got the 'justice' they demanded, so why the claims?

Class action? The immediate claims for compensation shows they haven't got any.

Thats probably the best thing i've read in the last couple of days

Post by **Gulliball** » 28 Apr 2016, 19:43

EmetEdadsBeard wrote: And no one has ever died at the ground at any of these matches, it held FA Cup semi finals for decades without anything on this scale, even in the days of mass hooliganism, so how did it suddenly become unsafe?
Gulliball, it's always been next to the River Don, it didn't mystically materialise in 1989 so that reasoning isn't relevant whatsoever (and yet again, if you knew the layout of the ground you would know that only a small minority enter the ground area over the bridge).

I'm going to say it again, what was different this time ?

Nothing on this scale? For someone so expert on the ground its history, you appear to have not read the above links, which give great detail about previous incidents at the ground. The most notable was the 1981 FA Cup semi-final when 38 people were injured in a crush.

In 1981, at the semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers at Hillsborough, 38 fans were injured in a crush. In a course of events that would be repeated eight years later, police opened Gate C after congestion at the turnstiles. A serious crush developed in the Leppings Lane end and fatalities were "narrowly avoided", according to the HIP report. Two perimeter gates were opened to let some fans escape on to the pitch. Turnstile counters showed that 335 too many fans had been allowed on to the terrace that day. At the time, Sheffield Wednesday FC blamed Tottenham fans for "arriving late" and "rushing to their places", crushing those in front. After the incident, Hillsborough was not chosen to host an FA Cup semi-final for six years.

Notice the parallels? Ticketless fans? Rushes? Blame on the fans?

What was different this time is that the Police Officer in charge did not do any of the above. It was his first match there and did not have the knowledge to correctly control the movement of the fans. Even once the mistakes were made, nothing was done to correct them. That is why 96 Liverpool fans died and 38 Tottenham fans were only injured.

Anyway, that's my last post on the subject. You are obviously going to stick to your beliefs no matter what. The families of the victims never gave up, despite countless rejections, and have now achieved what they set out to do, which was to uncover the truth about that happened that day.

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 28 Apr 2016, 19:50

PhilGull wrote:Oh for f*** sake. Some people need to open their eyes and ears. THE POLICE LIED. THEY ARE LIARS. IT WAS THE ACTIONS OF THE POLICE, THE AMBULANCE SERVICE, SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEATHS OF 96 INNOCENT PEOPLE. The fans were not at fault. Hopefully over the coming months we will see people caught and punished for what they did. Hopefully we will for the first time, see a high ranking police officer actually go to prison for comitting a crime, something which will hopefully set a precedent and allow us to move away from seeing police oficers who break the law simply retire and not face any punishment.

That quote is the most naive thing I've ever seen in print.

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 28 Apr 2016, 20:14

Gulliball wrote: Nothing on this scale? For someone so expert on the ground its history, you appear to have not read the above links, which give great detail about previous incidents at the ground. The most notable was the 1981 FA Cup semi-final when 38 people were injured in a crush.
Notice the parallels? Ticketless fans? Rushes? Blame on the fans?

What was different this time is that the Police Officer in charge did not do any of the above. It was his first match there and did not have the knowledge to correctly control the movement of the fans. Even once the mistakes were made, nothing was done to correct them. That is why 96 Liverpool fans died and 38 Tottenham fans were only injured.

Anyway, that's my last post on the subject. You are obviously going to stick to your beliefs no matter what. The families of the victims never gave up, despite countless rejections, and have now achieved what they set out to do, which was to uncover the truth about that happened that day.

Yes I did read the links and not once have i mentioned my so called expertise on the history of the ground, just its layout, but i was already aware of these incidents. Injured in a crush? To what extent? Where is the evidence? Did any of them sue the FA, SWFC or South Yorkshire police? If not, why not? If the ground was unsafe, why was it used for FA Cup semis in both '87 (when the second worst fans in the country, the scumbags from Leeds were here) and '88?

I've been in 'a crush' at loads of matches, I've been involved in a few scrapes at football where I've had to fight or be kicked to a pulp (and I witnessed a Wednesday fan get a 60 stitch 'stripe' INSIDE Anfield YES ANFIELD on the concourse, something the bloke never fully mentally recovered from). Yes, I hate the bin dippers with a passion there's no hiding that but anyone painting them as innocent needs a reality check.

This whole charade hasn't been about justice, it's been about blame so the relatives (and don't forget, I have the deepest sympathy for the poor buggers who got in early to get a good view) can get their compensation claims in.

Which they have done within an uncomfortable time frame (it's just been announced on the news that the claims went in last year but were put on hold because it was felt they would influence the outcome of the inquiry)

Why am I (and many others) not surprised by this action?

Gullscorer · Post by **Gullscorer** » 28 Apr 2016, 23:48

I'm inclined to agree with Southampton Gull Dave;

And also with EmetEdadsBeard.

While the others also make some valid points.

And whilst I feel sad for the victims and their families, I'm also saddened by human nature, the need to find someone to blame, the need for vengeance - sorry, justice - and the need for financial compensation, when what we really need is an acknowledgement that we are all only human and all subject to human frailties and shortcomings.

PhilGull · Post by **PhilGull** » 29 Apr 2016, 09:31

EmetEdadsBeard wrote:This whole subject is making my p155 boil. They could have saved two years worth of hearings, there was never any doubt that this would be the outcome and the fans would be totally absolved of blame.
I've been to Hillsborough 100s of times, even when the ground held 65,000 and I'm still in one piece. I've been to a league cup final there, play off's, the lot.
And no one has ever died at the ground at any of these matches, it held FA Cup semi finals for decades without anything on this scale, even in the days of mass hooliganism, so how did it suddenly become unsafe?
Gulliball, it's always been next to the River Don, it didn't mystically materialise in 1989 so that reasoning isn't relevant whatsoever (and yet again, if you knew the layout of the ground you would know that only a small minority enter the ground area over the bridge).

I'm going to say it again, what was different this time ? Dave hits the nail on the head, plenty of Liverpool fans played a major part in what happened. Anyone who has ever been to a match involving Liverpool will know, they are far from the 'jolly wisecracking loveable Scousers' the media makes them out to be. They aren't known around here as 'Victimpool' and 'Compopool' for nothing, and Stanley 'knife' Park is very aptly named.
Yes the police made a massive mistake and lied to cover it up but they aren't solely to blame for the events. The fact is (and this is a fact) that Liverpool bashing isn't allowed, not in the press, media or anywhere for that matter, and the inquest was never going to acknowledge the fans part in this tragedy.

And Lo and behold, before the ink on the verdicts has dried in has gone 100s of compensation claims in a class action suit against the police. This after claiming, and I quote Trevor Hickey "it's not about compensation, it's about justice".

Well they got the 'justice' they demanded, so why the claims?

Class action? The immediate claims for compensation shows they haven't got any.

This didn't happen at every match held at Hillsborough because the authorities in charge werent grossly incompetent at every match at Hillsborough. There will ALWAYS have been drunk fans, rowdy fans and even yes, your favourite - ticketless fans. At every game. Fans of every club.
I know it's fashionable to bash Liverpudlians. It's been rammed down our throats for the last 30 odd years how the people of Liverpool are feckless scroungers. But guess what? It's lies. lies pedalled by a press all to willing to feed peoples prejudices. Fed by Governments of all colours doing everything they can to keep the workers down and their mates up.
Do you think they care about us? Do you think The Sun cares about the working man? Of course not. I'll say it again. OPEN YOUR **** EYES. We are being lied to. People of northern England, the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh, immgrants from around the world - these people are not evil, they are just like us, we are all the same. It is them that are evil - the politicians, the newspaper proprietors and editors. From The Sun to The Guardian they are all the same, pedalling lies. Turning us against each other, making us fight amongst ourselves for their benefit.
Scousers are not bad people, nor are blacvk people, or Irish people, or even Cornish people. One day the people will stand up and scream from the rooftops - **** YOU I WONT DO WHAT YOU TELL ME.

PhilGull · Post by **PhilGull** » 29 Apr 2016, 09:40

Oops, that got a bit ranty :Oops:

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 29 Apr 2016, 14:49

Fair enough rant actually BUT make no mistake there is a culture among Liverpool fans more than any other that makes them think it's ok to steamroller the gates at almost any club. Of course the authorities now turn a blind eye for fear of negative publicity.

We'll make a "conspiracy theorist out of you yet

EmetEdadsBeard · Post by **EmetEdadsBeard** » 29 Apr 2016, 18:32

Southampton Gull wrote:Fair enough rant actually BUT make no mistake there is a culture among Liverpool fans more than any other that makes them think it's ok to steamroller the gates at almost any club. Of course the authorities now turn a blind eye for fear of negative publicity.

We'll make a "conspiracy theorist out of you yet

Nail on head mate.

Any thoughts on what ex Chief inspector David Sumner has said today?

Exactly what both myself and Dave have been saying, it's rubbish to say the fans had no part in it! Drunk fans turning up at the last minute? Of course they had a part in it (please, please don't say this isn't true it was made up by the police, no end of witnesses not only the coppers said this DID happen but as Dave states, you can't give them any negative publicity).

And why has David Crompton been suspended? To appease the Compo claimants, he was nowhere near Hillsborough in 1989!

Remarkably The Guardian carried an article around 1982 ish (I read it while still at British Steel) entitled 'Liverpool, The City that Feels sorry For Itself'. Unfortunately i haven't been able to find a link, but this makes interesting reading

http://www.ilivehere.co.uk/liverpool-se ... -city.html

Don't think I'm a heartless person, no one should die at a football match, but as Dave says, there's a lot of guilty Liverpool fans who will NEVER admit they contributed to that terrible day.
And remember the Stanley knivings? I witnessed one inside the ground.

Them lovable Scousers eh?

Post by **Scott Brehaut** » 29 Apr 2016, 20:08

Just to play devils advocate for a second....if this had been a load of Millwall fans, would we be pinning the blame on everybody but the fans, given their "thug element"?

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 29 Apr 2016, 22:49

As I remember it at the time, there were a number of contibutory factors to what happened.
1. It was reported that there was a serious accident on the motorway between Liverpool and Sheffield and this delayed many fans getting to the ground until shortly before the kick off. The kick off should have been delayed as they are now in similar circumstances. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
2. When fans were still entering the ground, Liverpool almost scored which caused fans to surge forward, thus pushing forward fans in front of them.
3. Then there was the dreadful fencing which in hindsight was a disaster waiting to happen, and yet similar fencing is still in place on many continental grounds.

I don't blame the police. They were caught up in a series of awful events which were virtually beyond anyone's control. And I don't think that some Liverpool fans were totally blameless either. Where the police are guilty are for the lies, lies and more lies and the the huge cover up that has taken place since. It's dreadful that the Inquiry has taken this long.

Torquay United Fans Forum