Fans Forum-TONIGHT. Doors open 6pm for 7pm start

[torregull]

Rob Stanley wasn't talking about the Masters investment he was talking about the January deadline set by GI International,and the implications of not paying off our debt by then.
TUST didn't breach the terms of the NDA concerning this and Rob initially said they did before retracting it when challenged.
The club have themselves breached the NDA terms and TUST members were given the details of this breach yesterday.

[ferrarilover]

There is certainly an anti TUST feeling from the board, that cannot be denied. Too many people view the current board and Thea etc through rose tinted glasses.

What is the meaning of Torquay UNITED ? Not a lot as far as I can see. Too many personal agendas and not enough who actually want a football club to exist,survive and compete as a professional club.

The problem is, Dutch, that under the TUST, we wouldn't survive and we certainly wouldn't compete. The TUST simply isn't, can't and would probably never be able to finance a proper club. A pub team, Willand Rangers or Newton Abbot Spurs perhaps, but beyond this they'd have absolutely no chance.

The 'anti-TUST' feeling from the Board is probably simply frustration that they demand so much attention and want to make so much fuss when they have absolutely no practical way of buying and running the club for more than about a week. At a time when there are proper buyers looking to engage the club and those with more than £4.50 in their account looking to make offers, having some bloke from the TUST endlessly interrupting the Chairman's day with pie-in-the-sky notions is understandably irritating.

Matt.

[Kit_robin]

The problem is, Dutch, that under the TUST, we wouldn't survive and we certainly wouldn't compete. The TUST simply isn't, can't and would probably never be able to finance a proper club. A pub team, Willand Rangers or Newton Abbot Spurs perhaps, but beyond this they'd have absolutely no chance.

The 'anti-TUST' feeling from the Board is probably simply frustration that they demand so much attention and want to make so much fuss when they have absolutely no practical way of buying and running the club for more than about a week. At a time when there are proper buyers looking to engage the club and those with more than £4.50 in their account looking to make offers, having some bloke from the TUST endlessly interrupting the Chairman's day with pie-in-the-sky notions is understandably irritating.

Matt.

Pie in the sky, indeed. Stuart at the end said he would chuck £500 in. I probably would scrape together a similar amount. I can't imagine we're the only two. That was what TUST was trying to coordinate and it is perfectly acheievable as has been demonstrated by other sports clubs both in football and beyond.

The real pie in the sky thinking is believing that companies with no connection to Torquay or football will be happy to make substantial losses year after year. Even Thea had enough and she was a fan.

We would have a damn sight better chance of surviving LONG term under TUST than both this current board and I would wager a private company who may pump a few hundred thousand into the club initially, but will walk away eventually (as they always do).

[Kit_robin]

The gentleman who wanted to ask the question was speaking on behalf of TUST. Not sure who the people at the front were - probably the Board - one of the reasons in my previous post I made a comment about the Board not liking TUST.

Just to be clear Jon (who was trying to speak at the end but was closed down rather dramatically), is a TUST member but is NOT a TUST board member. Nor was he speaking for the trust in an official capacity. However he was one of the few people asking relatively stretching questions of the current board. This went down well with some of us, and not so well with others. The man shouting Jon down about half an hour in and at the end is called Tom and has been a fan for ages (and I've known him professsionally for a long time), and isn't normally particularly shouty!

For me the room felt divided. Tom said we should be talking "about the future", but I agree with Jon that to move into the future certain things need to be explained. Like, for example, the original board members didn't put their money in as share capital as was originally intended, meaning the club had £150k less investment last season than originally expected. This was unanswered.

What Jon wanted to say at the end (I am guessing) is that what Stuart was talking about was exactly what TUST wanted to do but were being dismissed by the current board, and if people wanted to chuck money in they should support the TUST in doing so. I'm not sure why Stuart dragged Alan mersons message board into it as he is nothing to do with anything.

[Kit_robin]

it was clear from what was said and was not disputed by TUST that they knew of the money that Masters put in and how much. it was also clear that TUST were asked to keep quiet about it. the fact that they never signed anything to that effect doesn't make them right. there was a gentlemans agreement which was between them and the board. too many want to let things out which should remain confidential and that will no doubt colour the judgement of the board in the future. if you are asked to not say anything then you should abide by that or not expect to be asked again. thats life I'm afraid. and I myself can see that as a reason them confidential matters would never be discussed in front of TUST again. I know they feel they have the club at heart but the long term damage done will be harder to repair than if they had not said anything in the short term and been more included in the future.

I find this passage quite astonishing. Firstly allowing for the error that I presume you mean the information about GI taking ownership of the club if the loan isn't repaid by the end of January, and not Pete masters.

There may well have been a "gentlemans agreement" between TUST and the board regarding the information of the GI loan (although this was, as you point out, outside of any official NDA), however the agreement to keep it confidential was due to the fact the TUST was in talks with the board about a potential move to community ownership. Once this had died by the dismissive actions of the board (who actually DID break the terms of the official NDA by the way), then there is no longer any reason for TUST to hide anything from the people it represents. In an email from Michael at the beginning of the recent talks he said it was unfortunate they were keeping some things confidential but they were necessary during the talks. If the club wanted it to be kept confidential forever it should have been in the NDA.

But this is by the by, really. The most astonishing thing I find is that you, the board, and some people in the room on the night actually think it's acceptable that the board was hiding this information from us! Why? What damage would it do, other than to their own reputations? Unfortunately this is how this board seem to act, and despite moaning about a lack of transparency when they took over, have morphed into the most "closed shop" board I can ever remember.

Yes, this information about GI changes how we feel about them, as you say. But that is completely right! The fact they tried to hide this information has made it worse. It's a complete lack of respect to the only people who continually put money into their business.

TUST represent its members, all of which are Torquay united supporters. They have a DUTY to inform us of what they know as they represent all of the members. They are not a secret organisation. The board members are democratically elected to act on behalf of the members for the benefit of members, and they have acted with integrity in line with their stated aims and constitution.

The only people who have broken agreements and acted in an unprofessional manner are the current board of directors. This is a sad and unfortunate truth.

[Dutchgull]

well said Kit_robin. Great post

[Rjc70]

Agreed. And coming back to Uberwozza's post, fans criticising other fans surely mustn't be the headline news from the other night's meeting? Some bloke shouted over Jon asking a question (Jon will have been far more interested in the Board's answers to those questions that were put than worrying about that) and Dave Phillips and Bernard Noble think some are keyboard w*nkers. That the NDA wasn't breached by TUST was pretty much accepted by the person who raised that it had been. Examples of a few things that seemed a bit out of order and dismissive of fans in my opinion, but so be it. This Board most likely won't be here come January. We will.

The Board put out information that they set a timeline for bearing fruit and it is a couple of weeks away. It is they who are to be judged by all fans on what happens next as the clock ticks. Not fans judging fans, whether they think their voice is better heard by belonging to a grouping of fans, going through the turnstiles, keyboard wanking, shouting in public, being opposed to fan groups coz that's how they roll, or other.

[CP Gull]

I find this passage quite astonishing. Firstly allowing for the error that I presume you mean the information about GI taking ownership of the club if the loan isn't repaid by the end of January, and not Pete masters.

There may well have been a "gentlemans agreement" between TUST and the board regarding the information of the GI loan (although this was, as you point out, outside of any official NDA), however the agreement to keep it confidential was due to the fact the TUST was in talks with the board about a potential move to community ownership. Once this had died by the dismissive actions of the board (who actually DID break the terms of the official NDA by the way), then there is no longer any reason for TUST to hide anything from the people it represents. In an email from Michael at the beginning of the recent talks he said it was unfortunate they were keeping some things confidential but they were necessary during the talks. If the club wanted it to be kept confidential forever it should have been in the NDA.

But this is by the by, really. The most astonishing thing I find is that you, the board, and some people in the room on the night actually think it's acceptable that the board was hiding this information from us! Why? What damage would it do, other than to their own reputations? Unfortunately this is how this board seem to act, and despite moaning about a lack of transparency when they took over, have morphed into the most "closed shop" board I can ever remember.

Yes, this information about GI changes how we feel about them, as you say. But that is completely right! The fact they tried to hide this information has made it worse. It's a complete lack of respect to the only people who continually put money into their business.

TUST represent its members, all of which are Torquay united supporters. They have a DUTY to inform us of what they know as they represent all of the members. They are not a secret organisation. The board members are democratically elected to act on behalf of the members for the benefit of members, and they have acted with integrity in line with their stated aims and constitution.

The only people who have broken agreements and acted in an unprofessional manner are the current board of directors. This is a sad and unfortunate truth.

Agreed.

It seems that some would have preferred that this information should not have been brought into the public arena. Presumably, they would have been happy to let the Board carry on regardless, absolutely oblivious to the severity of the situation - only to wake up on the 1st February 2017 to (potentially) find out that we are now owned by GI - and that if they don't get what they want from the Council i.e. the freehold of Plainmoor and land for development then they will run the club into the ground and TUFC is no more!!!!

Regardless of whether the niceties have been observed, I couldn't care less whether TUST have broke some gentleman's agreement or not - wake up and smell the coffee - the very existence of TUFC is on the line and I for one am grateful to them for letting us know, because as we know it's like trying to extract teeth getting any information whatsoever out of the current owners - who like all those that have gone before them are merely temporary custodians of TUFC. Surely there isn't a TUFC supporter out there that doesn't hope that the current owners will soon (hopefully) revert to being just fans again - including the individuals concerned. We should be grateful for them coming in and saving the club and trying to steady the ship but in reality the sort of money that they started out with was only ever going to be about as much use as applying a sticking plaster to a gaping great wound.

[tomogull]

Hello, fellow keyboard wonkers. Am I missing something here ? Information about a 'loan, believed to be six figures, made by GI has to be repaid by the end of January or else the club falls into GI hands' was public knowledge weeks and weeks ago. I'm almost certain Dave Thomas included it on his Herald Express pages. So what is all the fuss about?

As a TUST member, I tend to agree with Matt's assessment. TUST simply do not have the financial clout to take over the club at the present time. Yes - there may be fans willing to put in £500 or even more, but even so, it would be a long way short of keeping the club afloat. Dave Phillips & co may have done well to keep the club staggering along, but their offhand treatment of the fans is a disgrace. His derogatory comment about Forum users is unforgiveable. Doesn't he realise that 99% of Forum users CARE (sorry Matt - I'm using capitals !) about the future of our club and that most have supported the team for many seasons?

[Rjc70]

It's hard to imagine any trust having the financial clout to take over a club before a community share issue. Those who have had to step in when no owners were left, who also wouldn't have had said clout, would have started one asap, also. I doubt there are any recent examples falling outside those two examples, but stand to be corrected if so.

I don't think Dave Thomas ever put in about the default clause, although quite right tomo - plenty knew well before the NDA and it wasn't from TUST that they did.

As for the Board being dismissive of fans. I'm not quite growing immunity to it, but it's hardly the first time and I doubt it will be the last, even if they do stagger on until the January D-Day that they set for us.

[arcadia]

If we owe GI £100,000 plus do we owe the Bristows money? The chairman only said that Bristows have not asked for the transfer money from the McDonald deal.

If the club does owe this kind of money why did they stretch the budget at the start of the season, the Chairman and I am not having a go at him has gambled the future of the club unless we get a buyer.
With a manager and staff on a 3 year contracts it is not such an attractive proposition when buying a club.

[Richinns]

I think too much is being made of this keyboard w@nkers thing. It is being generalised across all fans of TUFC on all areas of social media interaction. I pretty sure it was directed at a select few (mainly from another forum) who cross the line time and time again. As I said on said forum - Yes it was very clumsy and somewhat unprofessional to use the terminology about a small section of the fans but if you throw relentless sh1t at people you should expect some of it to be returned.

There are bigger issues at play here ad I think energies should be concentrated on that rather than a throw away comment about people who have been personally abuse without and drawing judgements without the full insight which allows for such (often nasty) conclusions.

[Neal]

Couple of observations after watching the video.

1) Any investor would need to "invest" every bloody year. Its not a one off. And that would include TUST.

2) So the season ticket offer was actually for half a season if we dont get bought out. Perhaps thats why it was cheap. Actually it doesnt bother me, but they knew this.

3) TUST is probably the only long term solution, but it would most likely mean part time football and conf south at best.

4) I think the notion of "investing" in TUFC quite amusing. The reply from the board was, get prommoted a couple of leagues then sell on, make a profit. Bloody hell really, cant see that happening. Thea chucked in a good wad, got a crap manager, and that was wasted.

5) I thought they answered the questions as best they could actually. You cant be totally transparent during negotiations. Just like Brexit

6) someone said the board had had some bad luck. Yes and no. Some people seemed to do alright from it financially. Bad luck or bad judgement, who knows

[ferrarilover]

Hello, fellow keyboard wonkers. Am I missing something here ? Information about a 'loan, believed to be six figures, made by GI has to be repaid by the end of January or else the club falls into GI hands' was public knowledge weeks and weeks ago. I'm almost certain Dave Thomas included it on his Herald Express pages. So what is all the fuss about?

As a TUST member, I tend to agree with Matt's assessment. TUST simply do not have the financial clout to take over the club at the present time. Yes - there may be fans willing to put in £500 or even more, but even so, it would be a long way short of keeping the club afloat. Dave Phillips & co may have done well to keep the club staggering along, but their offhand treatment of the fans is a disgrace. His derogatory comment about Forum users is unforgiveable. Doesn't he realise that 99% of Forum users CARE (sorry Matt - I'm using capitals !) about the future of our club and that most have supported the team for many seasons?

Dave Phillips and his club (remember, he is the owner, the Chairman and a fan, his blood is at least as yellow as yours or mine) has been called just about every name under the sun on here and elsewhere.
Those doing the name calling (those to whom he was undoubtedly referring) have chosen to throw stones while living in glass houses. That's their fault, not his.
If one is unwilling to accept being called a forum wanker, one should refrain from being a forum wanker. Forum wanker advice there.

Kit,

I am very much afraid that you have proved my point, not your own. I find it quite alarming that a chap so obviously not obscured by the fog of insanity can believe that a few people chucking in £500 once or twice will be anything like enough. Do you honestly believe that if that were the answer, we wouldn't have done it by now? That the Board wouldn't have had a look down the backs of their sofas and cobbled together the few grand. Christ, if it turns out that all we need is that sort of money, I'll buy the club myself.

Our average home attendance is, what, 1500? To pay off GI and give Thea her money back and run the club until the end of next season with absolutely no additional investment in anything, save paying what we owe between now and then (assume the same squad with same costs), each of those 1500 people would need to be throwing £600, maybe £700 in per person. And that's without any progression whatsoever. If we avoid relegation over the period, we'd still be looking for the same level of investment 18 months from now just to go backwards a bit less quickly than we might otherwise. To progress, to get back to the FL for example, would require that number of people to triple their investment. We'd need the same again to run an academy and to be able to launch all the wonderful initiatives which we'd all like to see. Things like giving disabled supporters somewhere to stand or sit more comfortably in inclement weather.

Have a look around you on a Saturday afternoon. 50% kids using their pocket money to get in and only just then affording it and 50% pensioners in flat caps, still sucking last week's Werther's Original for the sake of not being able to afford another packet until pension day.

I reckon, perhaps, if we're lucky, 150 people would be willing and able to contribute meaningfully. You say you can scrape together £500. Can you find 10x that? Can you do that every season for the next 20 years? Running a football club is expensive. REALLY (for you, Tomo) expensive. The Conference is League 3, Division 5 these days. They might be tinpot outfits, but the likes of FGR, Eastleigh and Dover have millions at their disposal and they don't storm the league. Getting promoted is hugely difficult from the Conference, moreso every year, with more pub sides being acquired by rich nutters and turned into something they're not. It won't be long before the gap between the haves and have-nots in this division will be an average of beyond £1000/week.
How do you hope to compete with that level of investment with a group of well meaning coffin dodgers donating half their Winter Fuel Allowance once a season?

The sad reality is that in modern football being enthusiastic and longstanding as a supporter is hugely worthy, but largely worthless.

Matt.

[torq2u]

Huth was a mystery and we would all have been on his case if Huth had been signed on the basis of one game and turned into a turkey. which is what some people are looking on our team as (Turkey United, ready for Christmas)

You mean "Turkey United, ready for STUFFING AT Christmas", which is usually the case and more apt than ever this time round. :}