Clinton or Trump..??

[Gullscorer]

President Donald Trump... has a very nice ring to it..

[happytorq]

President Donald Trump... has a very nice ring to it..

But wait...wasn't the election rigged? I mean, you said it was...and you linked to Breitbart so clearly it must be true..

Or have you suddenly gone very quiet about the idea of 'rigged' elections now that the "right" person has won? You've certainly kept shtum about the 3 arrests made by people attempting to vote twice - all Trump supporters, btw.

in any case. the election was not rigged. Trump won fair and square, within the rules of the election. He may end up having fewer votes than Clinton did, but that's not his concern.

The Democrats ran a ridiculous campaign from the off - it became apparent very early on that this would be an anti-establishment election, but instead of choosing their outsider they went with the most 'establishment' candidate there has ever been.And then, once the Trump-Clinton election was set, they were horrifically complacent by not visiting states because they thought they were won already; specifically, Wisconsin and Michigan, where Trump spent a lot of time talking about manufacturing jobs that had been lost. That resonates.

I still don't see where those jobs are going to come back from - it's not like they moved; they just don't exist any more - and Trump has yet to put forth any actual...you know, policies. But one thing he's been very good at is saying things that people want to hear.

He's also said a lot of very unpleasant things about various groups, and that's the stuff that worries me. On a purely Presidential level, I'm not too concerned because the office of President has so many checks and balances on it he can't do too much (especially once the mid-terms in 2018 come along and the pendulum swings back away from GOP controlled House/Senate as it always does). But his comments in the past year have given legitimacy to the worst thoughts of people. Already since the election, people have started flying Nazi flags over their homes, swastika grafitti has appeared, people in the street are being told to 'go back to where you came from' - and this is Trump's fault. He can talk about wanting the country to be unified, etc etc but it's his actions and words that have given people the confidence that their shitty opinions are somehow ok. That's it's cool to tell a latino guy at a gas station "It's soon time to send you home, spic", for example (this was a friend of mine being shouted at). That hell, maybe grabbing women by the pussy is ok, because look, the president has said he does it.

That's the scary part. Would Clinton have been a good president? Who can tell, honestly. She'd probably have lost after one term, but I'd probably have preferred that because of what Trump has come to stand for. The bigotry, the ignorance of things like facts, the idea that powerful people are somehow better if they say the first and worst thing that comes to mind.

Not everybody who voted for Trump is bigoted or racist. There are legitimate reasons to want the kind of change that Trump speaks about. But every bigot or racist has voted for Trump. That's why this election result is so depressing to me.

[Jerry]

Already since the election, people have started flying Nazi flags over their homes, swastika grafitti has appeared, people in the street are being told to 'go back to where you came from' - and this is Trump's fault. He can talk about wanting the country to be unified, etc etc but it's his actions and words that have given people the confidence that their shitty opinions are somehow ok. That's it's cool to tell a latino guy at a gas station "It's soon time to send you home, spic", for example (this was a friend of mine being shouted at).

Much the same happened over here after the Brexit vote.

Unfortunately lowlife bigots are always lurking just out of sight ready to appear given the slightest encouragement.

[Gullscorer]

I agree with much of what you say, Jerry. The choice given to the US electorate was a poor one, and both candidates were disliked to a very great extent by their opponents' supporters. However, it's easy to take a few extreme examples in order to make a campaign or candidate appear bad. Admittedly Trump did not help his own cause in raising the possibility of rigged voting and actually telling voters in a few states to vote twice! He may have intended to be rhetorical but was certainly foolish to say it, and he made similar amateurish errors, as we all know, when speaking about Mexican and Muslim migrants. Of the fraudulent voters, one man said he was 'testing the system' and a woman said she was 'afraid her postal vote for Trump would have been changed to Clinton'!

Any similar improprieties by the Clinton campaign would have been hidden by an almost total pro-Clinton press and media, though I do remember reading of e-mails of Clinton supporters being told to infiltrate Trump supporters and pose as Nazis. Similarly, many reported Nazi graffiti incidents were almost certainly of Clinton supporters defacing Trump campaign posters.

As for the extent of the racism, sexism. etc., of Trump's/Brexit's supporters, Channel 4 saw some research from an unbiased source at a Think Tank and apparently the number of uncorroborated complaints logged has shot up 900 per cent (from one complaint to10) and that was just on one night, after Channel 4 broadcast the details of the complaints web site! (I don't remember the name but a search might find it).

Why did Trump win? It was the ordinary people, the vast majority of men and women living their lives in loving partnership together, who saw through the Marxist-feminist man-hating ideological 'progressive liberal' propaganda machine and voted for a man who they feel, for all his faults, more truly represents them. And Hillary Clinton, surrounded by her politically correct feminist social justice warriors and their celebrity followers, speaking to women and girls under a glass ceiling, still doesn't get it.

The day after the election there were reports of 'anti-Trump' protests, in the same way that there were anti-Brexit protests in the UK following the EU referendum. These protests were, of course, not anti-Trump nor anti-Brexit. They were anti democracy protests by mainly young people, gullibly influenced if not indoctrinated by years spent in a toxic education system. Peruse http://www.thecollegefix.com to find out the scale of sheer lunacy on college campuses, not just American campuses. It would seem that western campuses are indoctrination centres the North Koreans would be proud of.

Anyway, of course the vote was rigged. Voting machines in a number of key states were manufactured by George Soros, a Democratic supporter: http://humanevents.com/2011/04/02/top-1 ... dangerous/ If the election had not been rigged, Trump would have won by a landslide... (You do realise I'm joking..)?

[Southampton Gull]

Much the same happened over here after the Brexit vote.

Unfortunately lowlife bigots are always lurking just out of sight ready to appear given the slightest encouragement.

I've not seen that anywhere around here, what's your proof or is it just an opinion of yours that it happened?

[happytorq]

Why did Trump win? It was the ordinary people, the vast majority of men and women living their lives in loving partnership together, who saw through the Marxist-feminist man-hating ideological 'progressive liberal' propaganda machine and voted for a man who they feel, for all his faults, more truly represents them. And Hillary Clinton, surrounded by her politically correct feminist social justice warriors and their celebrity followers, speaking to women and girls under a glass ceiling, still doesn't get it.

This whole paragraph gives me a headache. It must be fun to live in your world.

[Gullscorer]

Ha ha.. yes.. Remainers, Democrats, Marxists, feminists, 'social justice' warriors, Labourites, Social Democrats, Liberals, Greens, and other self-righteous ideologues, all living in their little bubbles and academic ivory towers with their 'them and us' totalitarian politically correct group-think, democratic only when things are going their way, otherwise very much anti-democratic, must be very poor losers.. Hence their hateful street protests (compare these with the civilised pro-Brexit march on Sunday) and pathetic High Court applications..

[Jerry]

I've not seen that anywhere around here, what's your proof or is it just an opinion of yours that it happened?

Personal experience.

My brother had "go home Pole" shouted at him the day after the referendum.

A friend who works in a Polish shop in Torquay was spat at and told "we" had voted to kick her out of "our" country.

"EU Rats Go Home Now" spray painted on the wall of Castle Circus health centre.

[Southampton Gull]

I live in a city with Polish people making up 10% of the population. In Shirley High Street there are 3 Polish shops that refuse to serve English people. I don't know of any shop that refuses to serve Poles. I work with Poles on doors across the city and have not once encountered any incidents of a racist nature before or since Brexit. I'm sure it happens but not anything like as often as you seem to want to portray. There will have been racist incidents before but do you honestly believe it's escalated since the vote to leave the EU? The vote was anti-establishment not racist, that is just a slur to try and damage the reputation of Leave voters and one the Remainers are so quick to shout about.

[Jerry]

I live in a city with Polish people making up 10% of the population. In Shirley High Street there are 3 Polish shops that refuse to serve English people. I don't know of any shop that refuses to serve Poles. I work with Poles on doors across the city and have not once encountered any incidents of a racist nature before or since Brexit. I'm sure it happens but not anything like as often as you seem to want to portray. There will have been racist incidents before but do you honestly believe it's escalated since the vote to leave the EU? The vote was anti-establishment not racist, that is just a slur to try and damage the reputation of Leave voters and one the Remainers are so quick to shout about.

I'm not trying to portray anything, just telling you what I and people I know experienced. Yes without a doubt racist incidents escalated after the Brexit vote, but it was only short term spike and things quickly returned to normal.

I was and still am a remainer but I'm not one of those who seek to demonise brexit voters. I can see their point of view and agree with them on some points and can quite understand why so many voted to leave, and I entirely agree that the vote wasn't racist but was a protest against the status quo and the establishment.

But the result did give some lowlife scum the impression that their foul worldview was legitimised and thus they felt bold enough to come out into the open with their hatefulness for a short time. Once they realised that the vast majority of people in this country are decent people who despise them and their bile most of them crawled back under their rocks.

This is the same thing that is happening Stateside now, and I fully expect it to die down and return to normal before long.

[Southampton Gull]

Fair enough. I can agree to disagree.

[tomogull]

From the News Quiz on Monday night - "Americans are going to the polls tomorrow to vote for the worst president in American history. Or an even worse one". Says it all really. Anyway, good news for Mexican bricklayers .......

[Gullscorer]

Jessica Valenti: the reason why Trump won: http://www.cotwa.info/2016/11/jessica-v ... p-won.html

[S4fedr1ve]

im with Jerry here. I have posted this before but i live with a Polish girl and know a number of her Polish friends. Most of them have had comments directed at them since Brexit some of it in the same vain as Jerrys comments others the "what a shame what are you going to do now, when do you think you will have to go home? "type which although not deliberately nasty does make them feel uneasy and still unwelcome.

Amazing that English people cant go into these Polish shops in Shirley, i certainly have never had any problems in Exeter i often shop alone in the Polish shops and the Poles are always friendly towards me. Do they have signs up saying Polish only? I agree that this is totally wrong.

M

[Gullscorer]

I suspect those comments you speak of came from a few Remain voters, and a small number of Leave voters, who swallowed the false narrative and distorted picture of Brexit propounded by Remain's Project Fear. There will always be a few extremists and fools who get it wrong, but it would be dangerous to extrapolate that to a universal representation. These are very much isolated cases, not the tip of the iceberg.