Guiesley V Torquay Sat 12th November 3pm

Fonda · Post by **Fonda** » 12 Nov 2016, 22:03

Blame Nicholson, blame Phillips or blame the players. Fact is, whilst it would be far simpler if there was a single problem to fix, it's far more complicated than that. None of them are singularly to blame.
When Nico took over, my personal feeling was that he was the easy, obvious choice. Cheap, local, 'club at heart' he ticked all the boxes. I was my usual cynical self and was convinced he'd fail. In fairness to him he's done a reasonable job - or at least talks a much better game than 'Greavsie' ever did. He's a nice guy, and most would struggle with the restrictions he has to deal with - but he plainly isn't getting acceptable performances from some capable footballers.
As far as Phillips is concerned, he might maintain a degree of self interest with his negotiations, but he's entitled to surely? If it wasn't for him and a small group of brave (stupid) people that care, the club would've folded some time ago. I don't blame him trying to get something back, he didn't ask for any of this. He tried to help and bit off more than he could chew. That doesn't merit huge criticism - unless I'm missing a lot of detail...
Where the players are concerned, I think as a group they should be competitive. There is quality in that dressing room (albeit in smaller numbers than most of the competition). Perhaps they don't care enough, or perhaps they aren't being taught well enough. But they ought to be good enough. Personal feeling is it's probably a very difficult place to work right now. Almost completely joyless and that has to affect staff from top to bottom.
So we're stuck in a perfect storm. A combination of inter-related factors, which means a simple fix doesn't exist (or rather it does, but simply isn't realistic). The owners want out, which means they're listening to offers that probably won't noticeably improve anything. Those that are interested will be prospecting, not looking for glory. The manager has a 3 year deal which we can't afford to break. The squad is (at best) thin, but won't be improved anytime soon.
In this position, most clubs would be hoping for a lottery-winning fan to take over. Has that ever happened to the same club twice? Probably not.
The frustration for me is that there isn't an obvious target of my anger. No individual is to blame for this. Everything is wrong. There is no joy at the club now - for the fans or the players. It's one viscous, unhealthy circle.
I'm rambling now. And I don't even have a conclusion other than an obvious one. The club needs investment - proper investment. The kind of contribution that won't simply clear debts, but will enable the manager (or a manager) to improve the squad. Anything less than that and the club's days are numbered. It really feels like the end is nigh. And if it happened right now, it'd feel like humane euthanasia. It's losing money, losing games and losing fans. Everyone employed by it, invested in it or otherwise associated with it, is miserable. It's going to take something meteoric to save it.

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 12 Nov 2016, 23:08

lucy6lucy wrote: Lose at guiesley and I think we are doomed as a club, with relegation a certainty.

Lucy6lucy was castigated by some posters for this statement and although rather an exaggeration, there is no argument that we are heading for yet another relegation scrap. At the beginning of the season, it was generally agreed that we had to pick up points against teams in the lower half of the league. We have just dropped 6 points against Southport & Guiseley. Southport have gone above us today, Braintree won, York picked up a point and Woking and N. Ferriby drew. We are being dragged down and down. One win in 12 games speaks for itself. After 19 games last season, we has 16 points. We have just two more points this season.

Very sensible post from Fonda as usual (we've missed your wisdom, Fonda -

). The players are capable of better than this. Without making excuses for poor performances, they can't help wondering what is going on off the field and as Fonda says, Plainmoor can't be a happy place to be at present.

Burnhamgull · Post by **Burnhamgull** » 12 Nov 2016, 23:16

But in Nico we trust, yea?

If the players are capable of better than this do we deduce that the coaching and tactics are to blame?

Fonda · Post by **Fonda** » 12 Nov 2016, 23:19

Yep. But what do you propose a club with absolutely no money does about it?

Fonda · Post by **Fonda** » 12 Nov 2016, 23:20

tomogull wrote: Lucy6lucy was castigated by some posters for this statement and although rather an exaggeration, there is no argument that we are heading for yet another relegation scrap. At the beginning of the season, it was generally agreed that we had to pick up points against teams in the lower half of the league. We have just dropped 6 points against Southport & Guiseley. Southport have gone above us today, Braintree won, York picked up a point and Woking and N. Ferriby drew. We are being dragged down and down. One win in 12 games speaks for itself. After 19 games last season, we has 16 points. We have just two more points this season.

Very sensible post from Fonda as usual (we've missed your wisdom, Fonda - ). The players are capable of better than this. Without making excuses for poor performances, they can't help wondering what is going on off the field and as Fonda says, Plainmoor can't be a happy place to be at present.

.

Cheers pal.

Burnhamgull · Post by **Burnhamgull** » 12 Nov 2016, 23:27

Fonda wrote:Yep. But what do you propose a club with absolutely no money does about it?

Nothing the club CAN do, we're screwed.

I just think he's getting an easy ride because he's a nice guy/legend etc.....

The board are clueless
Nico is out of his depth
The players are clueless
The fans are disillusioned
The local population are indifferent

Thank **** it's another week before we have to go through all this again.

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 12 Nov 2016, 23:35

A manager is only as good as his players and he can only improve them to the best that they can play. Nicho made bad choices in the summer and perhaps did not expect to lose McDonald who was our rock. Gerring is a stop gap who can fill in but not on a regular situation. The best at centre half we've got is GG the Australian and Nicholson needs to look at himself and ask can he improve the side. I think whilst Lathrope is out he could fill in as anchor man in midfield in front of the backfour in one formation. The other option is move Chaney to a central position behind Blissett which I've been on about for a long time as he's got quick feet and defenders do not like to tackle this kind of player in the box.

Looking back to last season the distribution from Moore has changed, he seemed to have options last season with wide players and was throwing the ball out in wide areas and we kept possession now we've got no wide players the balls knocked long and we lose possession.

We are in -hit street unless we improve.
If your a Chairman normally you would be sacking the manager to get a different outlook on the team, that does not seem an option so Nicho has got to have a rethink on the way we play to get out of this mess.

madgull · Post by **madgull** » 13 Nov 2016, 00:30

Burnhamgull wrote: If the players are capable of better than this do we deduce that the coaching and tactics are to blame?

'The players are playing badly'.

Does it really take such a stretch to understand this? Does it compute? THE PLAYERS are playing badly. THE PLAYERS.

We don't have the budget for the sports psychology department required to simply 'turn around' the mindsets of a bunch of what are - by the manager's admission - the rejects we picked up from other clubs with confidence absolutely shot to pieces due to a poor run at the same time that the very future of their employer hangs in the balance. Sport isn't like the average job; confidence is JUST as important as technical ability (this isn't one of this forum's usual 'FACT' statements, read any kind of university-level sports science book).

We're all angry and upset because we care, and we all want to be able to say 'well someone is doing something wrong SOMEWHERE, this can be fixed easily!' This isn't always the case, unfortunately.

Rjc70 · Post by **Rjc70** » 13 Nov 2016, 00:40

They won't get shot of a manager with 2 and a half years left on a three year deal if they are trying to get money back on a sale, so those who want rid or who are imploring we must keep Nico, may as well save their breath at the moment.

Apparently potential new owners are awaiting the news from Dave that they are the lucky next owners and we'll hear more next week. If it's not GI come January - Dave may have had a punt to lay off his losses - then I doubt Nico will continue if a future owner comes in before them with enough money to sack him, replace and strengthen. Our form is horrific. If they don't, they won't.

If it's GI, they won't give a f*ck anyway as they don't care what Division we're in (said as much already) and only want the ground.

Neal · Post by **Neal** » 13 Nov 2016, 09:05

Are the players good enough?

Are the players good enough but the manager isn't?

Is the current financial crisis at the club affecting both of those 2?

6667GULL · Post by **6667GULL** » 13 Nov 2016, 09:32

What they do in training, and what they doing in games at the moment are completely different,” - Nicholson

Sorry Nicho if you haven't got anything different to say don't bother, leave the space blank and let another abject performance speak for itself.

This is getting boring.

wivelgull · Post by **wivelgull** » 13 Nov 2016, 10:09

Darksiders and Rosetinters, an interesting observation: Up to a few (three? four?) seasons ago you could guarantee a sprinkling - sometimes a flood - of 'rosetinters' on this site. They have vanished. The 'darksiders' have won, and won convincingly. I'm afraid to say I was always a 'darksider'.

Fonda · Post by **Fonda** » 13 Nov 2016, 10:49

wivelgull wrote:Darksiders and Rosetinters, an interesting observation: Up to a few (three? four?) seasons ago you could guarantee a sprinkling - sometimes a flood - of 'rosetinters' on this site. They have vanished. The 'darksiders' have won, and won convincingly. I'm afraid to say I was always a 'darksider'.

Not sure that should be seen as any kind of victory. I'm certain most would view me as a 'darksider' too. I certainly never took any pleasure in that, and only ever posted what I thought was realistic. And when posting supposedly negative thought, I would far rather have been proven wrong than right. I respect those that still speak and post positively about the club. Unfortunately I have no idea what they are basing that positivity on. Wishful thinking I guess.

Dazza · Post by **Dazza** » 13 Nov 2016, 11:05

We are in really gloomy days. Some site 'moderators' don't help. Merse on the Penn Hill one almost seems to enjoy the gloom and doom. The Tff one edges that way as well. For some posters I suppose it's almost a defensive armour as if it's going to protect against the hurt if and when we go.

Personally I feel there isn't a club in recent decades that have crashed and disappeared. They all come back albeit slowly. If we have to we will do the same. Personally I feel there is a way through if people are there are bidders are there with some football interest in the club and it won't come to that.

Post by **Dave** » 13 Nov 2016, 11:17

This whole thing about 'rosetinters' and 'darksiders' is an utter nonsense, I've have had different forum members I know personally, put me in both categories. I'm happy to say I have never been a rosetinter, or a darksider, I've only ever tried to be honest in what I've seen in the team and the club.

At the moment our club is beyond cash strapped, we know that's an issue, but, as I've always maintained, it's not about what you do not have, it's how you use what resources you have. I was one of those who never got carried away with talk of play-offs or promotion at the start of the season, my expectation was a safe comfortable mid-table finish.

And this why my concern is growing by the match. We have the likes of Williams and Blisset, there should be 35-40 goals in those two players, we have Reid on loan, who never stops working, there are match winners in midfield, Ward can't get a game, and when he does, normally shoved somewhere out of position, and Young is being stifled by a lack of width, so no where to pass out from midfield too.

Feel sorry for Blisset who seems to be, now in the team as some sort of target man, that's not his game, and when he does win a header, no one's running beyond him, so what's even the point.

Oh but the players are playing badly it's all their fault, no it isn't, yes the players do need to take some responsibility of course. We need to be looking at why they're playing badly, that comes from the coaching and direction , man-management, confidence, and moral building, which stems from the manager and his team.

Our team is not fit, why not ?

Our team isn't great, I accept that, it isn't a top half team, but there is more than enough quality in this squad for a 12th-15th place finish, are we going achieve that, no, at the moment, not even close to it.

Are we getting the best out of this squad ? no, not even close to that either, instead of shrug our shoulders and saying we've got no money, because in this division, we're by no means alone. Instead of blaming the players, see, they don't turn up to the match and think, sod it, think we'll upset the wan'ers on the popside and play shat and lose, they want to play well and win, I think everyone at the club needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

From the manager and coaching staff, to the players the board, and yes even us fans, we all have our role to play in the clubs success or failure, can we all do better, yes we can.

Torquay United Fans Forum