Assaults on our Freedoms

[WestLondonYellow]

"I neither hold this country in disdain nor wish to engage in constant too-ing and fro-ing in lengthy debate over the 'state of the nation'. There has been too much tragedy and reaping of the policies that have put economics before humanity to leave me anything but shaken and saddened and the assumption that Muslims 'are taught in the mosque or madrasa to hate us, our way of life, and not to respect us in the street' is a gross misrepresentation giving the impression that this happens in all mosques or madrasa."

i don't want to and fro either, it's tiresome and i appreciate where you're coming from. Me saying you hold this country in disdain, was ignorant, as i understand everyone bothering to talk about this topic has good intentions.
I also agree there has already been far too much tragedy, but it is abundantly clear, these tragedies will continue until the issue is addressed. I don't assuem all muslims are taught to hate in all mosques,and i thought i had been careful enough to avoid that conclusion being drawn, nonetheless we know that there are mosque's allowing hate preaching and moulding of minds to hatred. If you look into it you'll see this is the truth, please, i ask you to read into wahabism and the saudi funding, look to understand the differences between the different Islamic factions and you;ll start to see how on the one hand there are many decent muslims who've integrated and on the other hand there are many more than it's acceptable to acknowledge who will never integrate and have a far darker agenda for our future.

"I agree with you; Islam and its teachings allow for thought processes and actions to manifest in the most atrocious ways but the same can be applied to Christianity too. That is the abomination of religion when manipulated by evil and manipulative people. For every one of them there are many more who reject and condemn that thought process and when you say that you 'cannot think of another minority community that has failed to integrate other than the Islamic community' you are again giving the impression that this accounts for the entire Islamic community ~ I disagree with that and we'll have to agree to differ."

Christianity is a dreadful religion all of its own and has been mostly disregarded by our modern culture. But, how many christian terror attacks have we had on our soil in the last 12 months. I want to deal with the threat that is in our face, and i dont see a christian terrorist organisation suicide bombing our kids.

The argument that we reap what we so also doesn't hold i'm afraid, because if ISIS attack us becasue of our foreign policy, which i did not support, then why is it they also attack in countries like the Philipines etc etc

regarding giving the impression it is the entire islamic community, that is not my view and i thought i had been careful enough in my previous post to make that clear.

"You ask me if I am 'aware that the islamic community not only hold us in very low regard but also all other cultural minorities' I am aware of that thought process in some people; yes. But for every one of them there are far more who do not fall prey to that indoctrination."

In Nazi germany, the majority of germans were peace loving and did not hold the views of the nazis, they did nothing to stop them and the result was WW2 and the Holocaust. More muslims are peaceful and get on with there lives than the opposite, but the darker side is growing (it isn't just some people, its around 25% of muslims in the UK with these views) becasue no one is stopping it, least of all the moderate muslim community or the inept and ignorant government, police or councils.

The fact you acknowledge that the indoctrination exists, surely means you acknowledge their is a problem with Islam, and the fact that for every 1 muslim who falls prey, far more do not, well, for me, every single one who falls prey is one too many, and the source is certain islamic teachings, there is no place for it here, i think you may have inadvenrtantly hit the nail on the head and agreed with my sentiment without actually meaning to.

"We live in very troubled and insecure times, and (as a country) are reaping the seeds we have sown over centuries of over involvement in overseas' life for the benefit of ourselves. We have to remain half-full and not half-empty. There are many things I see, hear and experience which could paint a black picture if I wanted it to. But the actualite is that I live amongst it and will always do my bit to contribute to a harmonious and respectful community. For me there is no other way."

This is a sweeping statement, we have done wrongs as a nation, and so has every other nation, including to a very large extent the arabic world, we are by far not the biggest perpetrators of darkness in this world and i suggest you really look into your history, ie slavery, research that and understand who the worst offenders were. We have a lot to be proud of as well as a nation and as Europeans and i don't by this, hold your head in shame bulls**t. You may be living in a decent community, but in my experience, community spirit was severely lacking when i lived in London, and i know Finsbury park, Stamford Hill, Seven Sisters and Stoke Newington well.

[KeithMalone]

In Nazi germany, the majority of germans were peace loving and did not hold the views of the nazis, they did nothing to stop them and the result was WW2 and the Holocaust. More muslims are peaceful and get on with there lives than the opposite, but the darker side is growing (it isn't just some people, its around 25% of muslims in the UK with these views) becasue no one is stopping it, least of all the moderate muslim community or the inept and ignorant government, police or councils.

You want to provide a citation for the bit in bold otherwise it falls under the 90% of statistics are made up. And for the love Torquay United do not use Breitbart or some other right wing rag such as the Daily Heil as these publications/websites are not even accepted by Wikipedia as sources anymore such is their propensity to print utter bull$hit

[WestLondonYellow]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sharia-law

you have access to google right? why not look for yourself. Is the Guardian a reliable enough source for you?

Specific text:
"Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of britain" ie the areas where they live, remember its a stepping stone.

So, specifically related to terrorist sympathers, it actually 4%, but those are the ones who admitted it. Now bear in mind, Merse believes they have a legitimate right to be terrorists and we are reaping what we sow. So, how many muslims are there in the UK, approx, 2.7 million, so 4% = 108,00 who agree with terrorism in the UK. and 621,000 who want sharia law (i would say Sharia law falls on the darker side as i mentioned above, and if you aren't sure, please look at sharia law in detail before defending it.) Now consider, they have kids at 3 times the rate that we do, so what will be the scenario in 30 years if we don't address this now?

if you answer to these stats is, well these figures are insignificant in relation to the rest of the population, this is the point i'm trying to make, the peaceful majority are not the ones who change the landscape. And the numbers are growing, now add in the "refugees" to the mix.

[merse btpir]

If you look into it you'll see this is the truth, please, i ask you to read into wahabism and the saudi funding, look to understand the differences between the different Islamic factions and you;ll start to see how on the one hand there are many decent muslims who've integrated and on the other hand there are many more than it's acceptable to acknowledge who will never integrate and have a far darker agenda for our future.

I am well aware of Wahabism and it's Saudi funding; have been educated on the subject by Muslims who share the same view as you ~ that it is a distortion of Islam. The alliance between followers of ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad bin Saud's successors (the House of Saud) proves conclusively where the funding comes from yet just sit back and watch as the governments of this country and the USA do business with Saudi Arabia!

According to the British government, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have long been close allies. The origins of these relations date back to the time of the First World War, when Ibn Saud signed the 1915 Treaty of Darin with the British government, thereby accepting the status of a British protectorate. On 20th May 1927, the British government and the Kingdom of Nejd concluded the Treaty of Jeddah, a further agreement. The United Kingdom was among the first states that recognised the country in 1926 and had a diplomatic delegation in the country. Saudi Arabia opened its embassy in London in 1930, which was the country's second official foreign affairs body abroad.

There are more than 200 joint ventures between British and Saudi Companies, worth $17.5 billion, and some 30,000 British nationals are living and working in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the United Kingdom's primary trading partner in the Middle East

[KeithMalone]

So having read the Guardian article what you are saying is 10 people answered a survey saying they completely sympathised with suicide bombers and a further 30 said they sympathised to some extent. I'll just go about my day not worrying about it as for a minute I thought you were saying the 25% of Muslims were supporting suicide bombings. Call it naive but I have a life to lead and 40 **** are very unlikely to affect it

[WestLondonYellow]

I am well aware of Wahabism and it's Saudi funding; have been educated on the subject by Muslims who share the same view as you ~ that it is a distortion of Islam. The alliance between followers of ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad bin Saud's successors (the House of Saud) proves conclusively where the funding comes from yet just sit back and watch as the governments of this country and the USA do business with Saudi Arabia!

According to the British government, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have long been close allies. The origins of these relations date back to the time of the First World War, when Ibn Saud signed the 1915 Treaty of Darin with the British government, thereby accepting the status of a British protectorate. On 20th May 1927, the British government and the Kingdom of Nejd concluded the Treaty of Jeddah, a further agreement. The United Kingdom was among the first states that recognised the country in 1926 and had a diplomatic delegation in the country. Saudi Arabia opened its embassy in London in 1930, which was the country's second official foreign affairs body abroad.

There are more than 200 joint ventures between British and Saudi Companies, worth $17.5 billion, and some 30,000 British nationals are living and working in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the United Kingdom's primary trading partner in the Middle East

I agree entirely with your sentiment here. The relationship our government have with the Saudis raises serious questions, among many other issues. And to me this begs the question, why is this going on and are the government trying to play the public for fools and have us believe they are dumb really so dumb on the topic, or is this part of some plan, to create a divide and god knows what else that it would lead to. Then if that is the case, what do we as people do, do we sit back and let it happen, do we have a choice.

For me, conversations like this, only serve to raise awareness, others will read this and not comment, but may have a slightly changed view based on yours and my input, and the more people who know, the better chance we have.

I've said elsewhere, i believe we have three problems, a useful idiot left brigade who consist of feminists defending sharia law (which directly opposes female rights) and other such imbeciles, an inept government (elemnets of which are possible fanning the flames on purpose) and a genuine
(and useful idiot) enemy in radical islam.

[WestLondonYellow]

So having read the Guardian article what you are saying is 10 people answered a survey saying they completely sympathised with suicide bombers and a further 30 said they sympathised to some extent. I'll just go about my day not worrying about it as for a minute I thought you were saying the 25% of Muslims were supporting suicide bombings. Call it naive but I have a life to lead and 40 **** are very unlikely to affect it

Its a shame the mothers and fathers of the girls killed in Manchester will never again be able to go about there day without it affecting them isn't it.

The attacks that went ahead are a percentage, many more potential attacks are thwarted by the authorites. But hey, it aint a problem right

And the guardian which is actually an extremely liberal left newspaper) saw fit to publish this article based on a survey. Now, do you not understand how survey are conducted and how stats work?

"ICM conducted face-to-face, at-home interviews with a representative sample of 1,000 Muslims across the UK between 25 April and 31 May 2015. A control sample of 1,008 people representative of the country as a whole were interviewed over the phone to provide a comparison."

so it was a sample, a random across the board sample, large enough to represent the wider community, which suggests these percentages can be applied to the wider community, that's how it works.

Furthermore, nice try with the 10 and 30, you got your maths a bit effed up there eh. 4% of 1000 is 40, and 23% is 230. But again, this is a representation of the views of the wider community.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/ ... ctims-died

hey you know what, go back to sleep dude, watch another episode of love island and pretend like this aint happening. then in 20-30 years when you wake up to the sound of mulsim prayer and your wife os forced to wear a hijab, remember how you decided all this was isnignificant. Have a nice day.

[KeithMalone]

Furthermore, nice try with the 10 and 30, you got your maths a bit effed up there eh. 4% of 1000 is 40, and 23% is 230. But again, this is a representation of the views of the wider community.

I really didn't screw up my maths. I detailed what the article said. I didn't mention the 23%, I said that the way you had made the statement of the initial statistic suggested that 25% were for suicide bombings when the article actually says 4% are.

As for your belittling comments to try and win internet points I don't care. My opinion on this is that it will not escalate to the point you think it will, we differ in opinions, move on. FTR yes it is atrocious that innocent people in Manchester and London have been killed which is about the only part of your post I agree with, however I won't live my life in fear of some radicalised idiots.

[WestLondonYellow]

4% agree with terrorism, out of 1000, that's 40, not 10. and its representative of the wider community.

i see what you mean now about 10 and 30, ie 1% and 3%, = to 10 and 30, ie 4% broken down, it has been a long hot day, but it is still only representative and indictaes a much bigger issue.

I took an attitude with your post because of the way you initially approached me, asking for evidence. You can do your own research and find out for yourself, and then due to your dismissive reply that there is no issue, when clearly there is an issue. i don't presume to know anything about you, but i'd be interested to understand what your personal level of exposure has been to this. have you grown up within or near to a dominant muslim community and experienced the associated problems that come with that?

A colleague of mine was killed in 7/7 and i only just missed it myself having arrived at work in Moorgate 20 minutes before it kicked off, so for me, this issue has been closer to home for some time.

[merse btpir]

For me, conversations like this, only serve to raise awareness, others will read this and not comment, but may have a slightly changed view based on yours and my input, and the more people who know, the better chance we have.

Indeed and that is always my motivation when posting but don't disrespect another contributor with 'in 20-30 years when you wake up to the sound of muslim prayer and your wife is forced to wear a hijab, remember how you decided all this was insignificant.'

That is losing the argument through personal abuse. I awake most mornings to the sound of Greek chanting from the Orthodox church next door but I don't expect to be walking arm in arm with a bent double little old lady dressed from head to toe in black '20-30 years from now'

[WestLondonYellow]

Indeed and that is always my motivation when posting but don't disrespect another contributor with 'in 20-30 years when you wake up to the sound of muslim prayer and your wife is forced to wear a hijab, remember how you decided all this was insignificant.'

That is losing the argument through personal abuse. I awake most mornings to the sound of Greek chanting from the Orthodox church next door but I don't expect to be walking arm in arm with a bent double little old lady dressed from head to toe in black '20-30 years from now'

sure i accept that it may have been a bit abusive, i was trying to make a point, that it matters, and he doesn't think it is significant. i would equate the survey results and the recent attacks, and also include the child grooming cases, to a warning light on the dashboard, if left unchecked, the problem isn't going to fix itself, it will result in a bigger problem.


greek orthodox don't have an agenda to force there ideology on you though, its a good example of integration working, i would say.

[Gullscorer]

I've been busy and ill both at the same time, but I hope to reply, in the next few days, to some of the points made since Merse responded with, shall I say, erroneous comments to my initial post..

[merse btpir]

I asked you to treat and regard those of all faiths and those without with due respect, reverence and tolerance ~ that was the simple nub of my posting in response to your obsessive listing of atrocities and incompatibility between Islam and other faiths and practices and giving the impression that it is the religion that is the root cause of terrorism, atrocity and imposition of fundamentalism rather than fanaticism.

As one who lives in and amongst a heavily diverse community which embraces the followers of many different beliefs and religions I am appalled at extremist views being perpetrated to the denigration of our way of life....if I can live in peace and harmony with those of other beliefs then so can you!

[WestLondonYellow]

I asked you to treat and regard those of all faiths and those without with due respect, reverence and tolerance ~ that was the simple nub of my posting in response to your obsessive listing of atrocities and incompatibility between Islam and other faiths and practices and giving the impression that it is the religion that is the root cause of terrorism, atrocity and imposition of fundamentalism rather than fanaticism.

As one who lives in and amongst a heavily diverse community which embraces the followers of many different beliefs and religions I am appalled at extremist views being perpetrated to the denigration of our way of life....if I can live in peace and harmony with those of other beliefs then so can you!

Merse, I'm pretty sure all of us on here want to live in peace with everyone else.

For me though, Gullscorer is only pointing out some facts and in relation to current events. None of us should be stupid enough to equate all muslims as a problem, but is it a case that islam might be the root cause and that the humanity of most muslims allows them to not be sucked into the dark side of it all.

If you read the koran you'll find it is incredibly easy to be interpreted in way that justifies the violence we are seeing.

[Glostergull]

I'd rather eat my own penis.

Matt.

If you do decide to try can you let us know where and when. im sure a few of us would love to see that acrobatic attempt! you could also lick your belly button out at the same time.