Dover v Torquay Utd. SAT 7TH APRIL. ko.3PM

[goody2449]

Don't disagree Goody ,I don't think Nicholson can be blamed for the current situation it is ultimately down to Owers with the time he's had to at least get us safe and has failed I just think we need stability for next season so need to see what he does next year if after a short spell he's still a disaster then change it asap rather than dithering like this season,.

Completely agree, but do we really trust Harrop to not waste 6 weeks again?

Does that not also breed the same problems we've had this season, one manager bringing in 'his' p[layers and then another coming in ten games later waning to change it all up again, resulting in another poor season

[greb46]

Could become problematic for sure but within ten games should be enough to see if things are at least stabilizing and if not I can't see any other option than changing the manager again to at least give time to avoid another relegation not ideal but would need to be done.It of course comes down to management or rather mismanagement by Harrop.

[merse btpir]

having a clown like Klukowski sat on the bench who patently is never going to get on the pitch.

In his defence I though Kuklowski sat on the bench very well yesterday; didn't fall off his seat or get in anyone's way when he went for a litle warm up just once during the game.

[Plainmoor78]

Next he’ll be telling us next they’re gonna build a new housing estate on the land at plainmoor!
BORING!

That I am afraid is not boring, it's a very real possibility. Clarke Osborne, whose line of business includes property development, has a track record in acquiring sports stadia and closing it down and demolishing it, most spectacularly Bristol Rover's Eastville stadium. He always promises to build alternative stadiums but to date has never actually done so. He has to date closesd down stadia in Bristol, Milton Keynes, Reading and is dragging his feet over Swindon speedway.

[Dave]

The thing is, Nicho is not fully to blame, but IS partly to blame, after 4 games, which saw us pick up 1 point and fortunate only to concede 11 goals, it should have been a lot more, it was blatantly obvious what path we're were heading under Nicho, Merse is right, Nicho signed a bunch of half fit, past there their sell buy date journey men, that fit the budget, why ? I don't know, but from what I can gather Nicho didn't even consider scouting the 1-3 steps below, for young, hungry players with potential as an option, virtually leaving Hedges redundant, if you look in the right places, the talent is on tap.

Not defending Owers, however, have we stop to consider why he's signed 22 players. when Owers arrived have we forgotten the team had won not one single game, had been beaten seven times, had had conceded over 20 goals by then, he inherited a squad of either injured or unfit players, Owers didn't have the blank canvass that many get during the close season, nor did he have the benefit of a pre-season.

In short, Owers didn't inherit a mess, he inherited a gord darn clusterfork. Where Owers has fallen short, is, in three attempts to fix the mess left him, and what I mean by that is, players brought in, and replaced twice over, Owers has failed. So he also must shoulder some of the blame.

[Plainmoor78]

As far as Owers go I think it is taking a big risk to keep him on. Nicholson was hardly inspiring last season and only kept us up on the final day. Likewise in my opinion Alan Knill wasn't impressive in his first season keeping us up on the final day if my memory serves correctly, and followed it by laying the path to relegation from the league. All that suggests Owers may very well struggle again.
I would prefer we try to find an up and coming manager with a track record of success behind him looking to make a name for himself rather than stick with what we have got.

[Plainmoor78]

The thing is, Nicho is not fully to blame, but IS partly to blame, after 4 games, which saw us pick up 1 point and fortunate only to concede 11 goals, it should have been a lot more, it was blatantly obvious what path we're were heading under Nicho, Merse is right, Nicho signed a bunch of half fit, past there their sell buy date journey men, that fit the budget, why ? I don't know, but from what I can gather Nicho didn't even consider scouting the 1-3 steps below, for young, hungry players with potential as an option, virtually leaving Hedges redundant, if you look in the right places, the talent is on tap.

Not defending Owers, however, have we stop to consider why he's signed 22 players. when Owers arrived have we forgotten the team had won not one single game, had been beaten seven times, had had conceded over 20 goals by then, he inherited a squad of either injured or unfit players, Owers didn't have the blank canvass that many get during the close season, nor did he have the benefit of a pre-season.

In short, Owers didn't inherit a mess, he inherited a gord darn clusterfork. Where Owers has fallen short, is, in three attempts to fix the mess left him, and what I mean by that is, players brought in, and replaced twice over, Owers has failed. So he also must shoulder some of the blame.

[nickbrod]

I'm trying to keep a clear head reading some of these postings about Owers but it's been made abundantly clear by Clarke Osborne alongside news filtering out of Plainmoor that Owers will be the manager next season because we've been told that he's already scouting players to sign as well as offering contracts to those in the current squad who he wants to keep. That's the reality whether we like it or not.

[Plainmoor78]

I'm trying to keep a clear head reading some of these postings about Owers but it's been made abundantly clear by Clarke Osborne alongside news filtering out of Plainmoor that Owers will be the manager next season because we've been told that he's already scouting players to sign as well as offering contracts to those in the current squad who he wants to keep. That's the reality whether we like it or not.

If he stays and makes an horrendous balls up of things and Osborne decides to get rid of him, I only hope they make a better fist of it getting the new coach in than they did this season. That would mean sacrificing Harrop which I can't see.

[Teigngull]

So in peoples opinions, the signings made by Nicholson are to blame for the position we currently find ourselves in. the same players hailed at the start of the season by the majority of fans all as good signings. Players still being used by the current manager because apparently, Nicholson wasted the season budget on duds.

Owers has brought in 22 players.

let that sink in, 22 players!!!!

Don't tell me Nicholson wasted th budget when this idiot has brought so many duds he could fill 2 teams!!!

Murphy, Evans, Myrie-Williams, the French striker (wont try and spell his name) the young lad from Plymouth, these are just a few I can remember that im sure wouldnt of come to TUFC for cheap, so where did the money come from, and who spent it?? Owers has wasted a damn sight more of any budget Nicholson did.

My point here is, yes Nicholson's signings have not all proved to be the players we had hoped for, but do we really need to be told every week its Nichos fault, it's just boring. the fact that he is also being blamed for having too many loanees is laughable. hes had 2 thirds of a season to buy players/sign them up, ( i understand its hard to get good players throughout the season) but other clubs have managed it ok.

i repeat, 22 players have been brought in since owers arrived. there's only one manager here whose to blame and its Owers. he's had 2 thirds of a season to sort it out, hes done F**k all close to getting us out of the situation we've been since he's arrived.

'BUDGET'.... Is a fixed amount of money to be made available for a set period of time.
So, if I were to have 'budgeted' myself to £100 a week for food & end up spending most of it by tuesdsy, how can I expect to eat in the best restaurants come Saturdays ?
You can say what ever you want about Merse & his comments & views, but, he always believes in what he's prepared to say 100%, whether you feel he's right or wrong has no bearing.
I suppose in a way Merse feels totally qualified due to his lifetime connection supporting the club & his insight garnered by actually being employed within the TUFC walls at one stage during his working life.

Realistically, Owers has been searching the bargain basement bins for some sort of quality to be able to field a team since he's been here. Whilst the senior experienced pro's brought in during the summer, on, & it has to be said, decent 2 year contracts a lot of clubs in this division couldn't afford to offer, have undoubtedly let the manager, who put his faith in them, the owner, who rubber stamped their pay deals, the fans, who live & love this addictive little club to the bitter end, & more importantly, they've let themselves down in bucket loads.
To some of them it won't matter as this will be their last decent pay day, other prospective employers would've noticed their lack of involvement, but for the younger ones, they may be offered a new deal but are just as likely to be shown the door by us & bypassed by other clubs.
So we've seen 22 players come in during GO's tenure & unearthed how many gems ?
That's the price you pay for blowing all of your budget on unfit for purpose players & then duping all & sundry into believing they've won the lottery with the obvious carthorses on show.
That's why I believe Mr Nicholson is culpable for this season's disaster, but also Harrop & Hedges for their inability to put it right at the earliest opportunity.
There was no obvious contingency plan & Owers & Khul have paid the price, even though I don't think they are the right men to take this club forward.

[goody2449]

[highlight=yellow]'BUDGET'.... Is a fixed amount of money to be made available for a set period of time.
So, if I were to have 'budgeted' myself to £100 a week for food & end up spending most of it by tuesdsy, how can I expect to eat in the best restaurants come Saturdays ?
You can say what ever you want about Merse & his comments & views, but, he always believes in what he's prepared to say 100%, whether you feel he's right or wrong has no bearing.
I suppose in a way Merse feels totally qualified due to his lifetime connection supporting the club & his insight garnered by actually being employed within the TUFC walls at one stage during his working life.[/highlight]

Realistically, Owers has been searching the bargain basement bins for some sort of quality to be able to field a team since he's been here. Whilst the senior experienced pro's brought in during the summer, on, & it has to be said, decent 2 year contracts a lot of clubs in this division couldn't afford to offer, have undoubtedly let the manager, who put his faith in them, the owner, who rubber stamped their pay deals, the fans, who live & love this addictive little club to the bitter end, & more importantly, they've let themselves down in bucket loads.
To some of them it won't matter as this will be their last decent pay day, other prospective employers would've noticed their lack of involvement, but for the younger ones, they may be offered a new deal but are just as likely to be shown the door by us & bypassed by other clubs.
[highlight=yellow]So we've seen 22 players come in during GO's tenure & unearthed how many gems ?[/highlight]
That's the price you pay for blowing all of your budget on unfit for purpose players & then duping all & sundry into believing they've won the lottery with the obvious carthorses on show.
That's why I believe Mr Nicholson is culpable for this season's disaster, but also Harrop & Hedges for their inability to put it right at the earliest opportunity.
There was no obvious contingency plan & Owers & Khul have paid the price, even though I don't think they are the right men to take this club forward.

So your telling me that there was no funds added to the yearly budget for Owers to bring his 22 players, or the money used to compensate Bath to actually Owers in the first players was part of said budget??

Where did the money come from to pay 22 loan players????? your argument is poor, if there was zero left in the budget, 22 players wouldn't have arrived!

How can anyone but owers be blamed for not unearthing gems, he got the jobs on the basis he had contacts contacts contacts, what a load of bull!

[Arrywithnobrain]

'BUDGET'.... Is a fixed amount of money to be made available for a set period of time.
So, if I were to have 'budgeted' myself to £100 a week for food & end up spending most of it by tuesdsy, how can I expect to eat in the best restaurants come Saturdays ?
You can say what ever you want about Merse & his comments & views, but, he always believes in what he's prepared to say 100%, whether you feel he's right or wrong has no bearing.
I suppose in a way Merse feels totally qualified due to his lifetime connection supporting the club & his insight garnered by actually being employed within the TUFC walls at one stage during his working life.

Realistically, Owers has been searching the bargain basement bins for some sort of quality to be able to field a team since he's been here. Whilst the senior experienced pro's brought in during the summer, on, & it has to be said, decent 2 year contracts a lot of clubs in this division couldn't afford to offer, have undoubtedly let the manager, who put his faith in them, the owner, who rubber stamped their pay deals, the fans, who live & love this addictive little club to the bitter end, & more importantly, they've let themselves down in bucket loads.
To some of them it won't matter as this will be their last decent pay day, other prospective employers would've noticed their lack of involvement, but for the younger ones, they may be offered a new deal but are just as likely to be shown the door by us & bypassed by other clubs.
So we've seen 22 players come in during GO's tenure & unearthed how many gems ?
That's the price you pay for blowing all of your budget on unfit for purpose players & then duping all & sundry into believing they've won the lottery with the obvious carthorses on show.
That's why I believe Mr Nicholson is culpable for this season's disaster, but also Harrop & Hedges for their inability to put it right at the earliest opportunity.
There was no obvious contingency plan & Owers & Khul have paid the price, even though I don't think they are the right men to take this club forward.

If the entire budget had been used before the coming of the Owers, then there must have been a subsequent increase, otherwise Reid and Williams (for example) would not have been given contracts. At least some of the loanees and trialists must have received some payment from the club which must also have been funded from the budget and if the person responsible had scouted properly instead of snapping up every 'bargain' at the jumble sale then there might have been a better return in performance terms.

[HockeyGull]

A valid point about the budget Mr Teigngull. The on pitch playing problems started 12 months ago when the hirers and firers at the Club first allowed Kevin Nicholson to remain in situ, only to sack him four games into the season....and then add to the problem by not appointing a permanent manager for many weeks. Some of the summer signings were obviously unfit at the time, and are still that way now.
I think it was in Gary Nelson's tome about his time as TUFC coach that a basic part of signing a player was to check their seasonal appearance record in the annual Rothmans publication. If they are not playing 35 plus games a season at lower league level, alarm bells ought to ring....injury prone or banned regularly.

[Teigngull]

Goody.
Any football club worth their salt, will most definitely blow the majority of their season's playing budget on the players that they see fit, to tackle the season ahead from the get go.
Then there will be a contingency budget to provide funds for needs must such as long term injuries, replacing players who leave mid season, unearthed gems etc etc, where you got zero from puzzles me.
Torquay United have got this season very very wrong from the beginning, I forget who was in the managers chair at that vital time!
The 22 players were brought in over the season , not in one go as you are making out to be, & I grant you the fact , out of the 22 , a huge ratio have not been what was required, but due to the inability of some of our 'Stellar' pre season signings to be available on a regular basis, a lot have been signed, in a panic, to cover unnecessary injuries to our perma crock superstars.
And I wholeheartedly agree with you on the contacts contacts contacts quotes about Owers, but in his defence , youth loans & inexperienced first year pro's are not going to help a struggling team get out of the shite is it, you can have all the contacts you like but the quality available has been poor.

[merse btpir]

Some of the summer signings were obviously unfit at the time, and are still that way now.
I think it was in Gary Nelson's tome about his time as TUFC coach that a basic part of signing a player was to check their seasonal appearance record in the annual Rothmans publication. If they are not playing 35 plus games a season at lower league level, alarm bells ought to ring....injury prone or banned regularly.

That's absolutely it; check out the appearance records of Kuklowski, Clarke, Gowling, Pittman and Gosling in the previous season and you've hit the nail on the head. They are on contracts that still need to be paid and between them they've only been available and/or selected for a fanny full of games anyway. Many of the early loan players that came in were being paid by their parent clubs. It wasn't until Anderson was paid off that money was freed up to take on Romain's wages from Dagenham and there were funds to bring in Williams.

The club had to stay within the approved business plan agreed with the league at the beginning of the season and it is 90% of that which was gone by the time Nicholson had been got rid of.

To get beyond that business plan the club then has to re-submit to the league showing increased capital coming in and it then has to be ratified by the league and approved or denied. This takes time and is more than likely why no significant capital expenditure over and beyond the remaining ten per cent on incoming players was seen being used until Williams and Romain arrived.

It's been a mess; totally created by having an L plate manager overseen by an L plated general manager and with no on the spot boardroom supervision with the ultimate financial decisions being made remotely.

I know Owers has to report directly to Osborne on a weekly basis; whether Nicholson did I am not party to; but suspect it was all done through Harrop. It's been a total cock-up and inevitably has led to a third successive relegation struggle and one which is going to be lost this time by the look of things. A struggle which in the context of what went before in the previous two seasons should never really have happened for financial reasons, but as ever at the foot of a table you find clubs in disarray ~ Chester, with their decison to go full time with their inability to execute a business plan to support that; Guiseley, with their ill thought out decision to go full-time and alienating their existing part-time players during the vital first third of the season. Woking, with their same over reliance on young development loanees as at TQ1 and Maidstone again morphing into a full-time club and upsetting the part-time apple cart during a season when these major policy changes should be carried out in the close season.

When they get it together, you will see any of these sides more than hold their own with any club in the league but it is the tell tale signs of chaos off the field that does for them and we have been that before and ever since Harrop walked through the door!