Osborne meeting with Kevin Foster MP and Cllr

[Teigngull]

At risk of putting the cat amongst the pigeons here, but what is the difference between the development at Broadmeadow in Teignmouth which includes a fairly modest sized supermarket with car parking , petrol station, business units , sports centre, children's nursery, sports pitches & extra parking. All built on a former landfill site & enhancing an area of the town that was in real danger of being left to fester.
So I'll ask again, What is the difference ?
Surely it it can be done in Teignmouth it can be successfully done in Torquay ? Y/N ?

[Plainmoor78]

At risk of putting the cat amongst the pigeons here, but what is the difference between the development at Broadmeadow in Teignmouth which includes a fairly modest sized supermarket with car parking , petrol station, business units , sports centre, children's nursery, sports pitches & extra parking. All built on a former landfill site & enhancing an area of the town that was in real danger of being left to fester.
So I'll ask again, What is the difference ?
Surely it it can be done in Teignmouth it can be successfully done in Torquay ? Y/N ?

Yes it can be done as mellowyellows post states, but it is very expensive. What is at issue here is Clarke Osbourne's true intentions. Does he want to build a new stadium or is he just interested in land acquisitions regardless of their intended use, for profit.
The track record suggests the latter.

[merse btpir]

Merse: are you saying that Osborne snapped up Plainmoor stadium for its potential development value rather than sporting reasons. It was all very insightful stuff and did get me to add two and two together in which I conclude that Osborne wants the Plainmoor freehold on the cheap and Nightingale for £nothing. Once he has achieved that goal he is free to do what he wants with Torquay United which in my opinion is too off-load it or wind it up

He certainly will offload it or wind it up; I'm with you all the way on that...

It's worth noting that Sixfields (Northampton Town) and the Madejski Stadium (Reading) are built on land fill sites and there will be plenty more; make no mistake about that!

As yet, Osborne has not 'snapped up Plainmoor'he has acquired the lease for it through his acquisition of Torquay United. He was attracted to that through the machinations of the Dave Phillips board offering it on a plate as a sacrificial lamb because they could not fund it as I outlined earlier. The Philips board stepped in when Thea Bristow decided she would no longer fund or capitalise the club that she owned. It will always be my contention that public opinion has let her off very lightly over her irresponsible disposal of her responsibility.

Osborne a is capitalising the Club as a means to make himself more acceptable as the potential owner of the Plainmoor freehold and to get the development he seeks at Nighingale Park or any other such site that might identified as a new home for the Club with associated schemes.

[torregull]

He certainly will offload it or wind it up; I'm with you all the way on that...

It's worth noting that Sixfields (Northampton Town) and the Madejski Stadium (Reading) are built on land fill sites and there will be plenty more; make no mistake about that!

As yet, Osborne has not 'snapped up Plainmoor'he has acquired the lease for it through his acquisition of Torquay United. He was attracted to that through the machinations of the Dave Phillips board offering it on a plate as a sacrificial lamb because they could not fund it as I outlined earlier. The Philips board stepped in when Thea Bristow decided she would no longer fund or capitalise the club that she owned. It will always be my contention that public opinion has let her off very lightly over her irresponsible disposal of her responsibility.

Osborne a is capitalising the Club as a means to make himself more acceptable as the potential owner of the Plainmoor freehold and to get the development he seeks at Nighingale Park or any other such site that might identified as a new home for the Club with associated schemes.

Councillors are to be briefed about the "Future of Plainmoor" on the 26th September,with Kevin Mowat and Liam Montgomery (TDA) providing the briefing.

[gullpower]

At least Kevin Foster is aware of his dubious character unlike the Mayor.

At least Kevin Foster is aware of the dubious character of the Mayor

[MellowYellow]

Councillors are to be briefed about the "Future of Plainmoor" on the 26th September,with Kevin Mowat and Liam Montgomery (TDA) providing the briefing.

I am not au fait with the workings of the Council. MP Kevin Foster and Cllr Thomas made clear the future for Plainmoor Stadium would be a key part of any serious discussions relating to Osbourne plans. Since Osbornes formal plans are not being submitted until November, can anyone explain to me why Councillers are being briefed by Torbay Council Asset Management staff about the 'Future of Plainmoor'. What is there to be briefed about? Confused!

[merse btpir]

The Torbay Development Agency are the professional body charged with attracting the necessary investment in to the area so necessary for capital projects that will propel the borough out of the past and into the future.

When they have a scheme (s) put to them they need to prepare and submit a report to the councillors who at the end of the day will have the decision making power as to whether any such scheme can go ahead or not. This is supposed to ensure they make informed decisions as opposed to uninformed.

So; whatever they propose as the 'future of Plainmoor' ~ which is an asset ~ is key to that.
http://www.tda.uk.net/what-we-do/proper ... management

Now what is indisputable is that the amount of information the agency has is dependent on what the proposer has given them and what they then in turn pass on to the councillors will be dependent on that on which to base their judgement.

[torregull]

I am not au fait with the workings of the Council. MP Kevin Foster and Cllr Thomas made clear the future for Plainmoor Stadium would be a key part of any serious discussions relating to Osbourne plans. Since Osbornes formal plans are not being submitted until November, can anyone explain to me why Councillers are being briefed by Torbay Council Asset Management staff about the 'Future of Plainmoor'. What is there to be briefed about? Confused!

It's not clear yet,but the worry has to be that Torbay Council having declared it's in very serious financial trouble might be looking to get rid of some of it's assets, including Plainmoor. The other possibility is that Councillors have called for this meeting in order that Officers can use the right channels to discuss Plainmoor/Nightingale Park,given that the Leader of the Council has stated that the Mayor's Forum was the wrong place for Osbourne's plans to be presented and discussed.

[MellowYellow]

Thank you Merse/Torregull. Better understanding now. Just hope when the official planning application is presented we do not find ourselves shutting the stable gate after the horse has bolted.

[standupsitdown]

I hope that sale of the freehold can be averted but if not it must be under an agreement that the freehold will not revert to Osborne until a suitable alternative stadium has been built and a fair rent agreed with TUFC.
Any councillors voting to sell the freehold without such a clause will be voting for the demise of Torquay United.

[Soupdragon]

... given that the Leader of the Council has stated that ...

The 'leader of the council' is currently the Mayor (until May 2019). Cllr David Thomas is the leader of the Tory group on the council. Pedantry perhaps, but it's as well to be accurate in these things.

He may well be the leader of the council following next May's elections; but then again he may not; at least not for very long.

[goody2449]

Merse: are you saying that Osborne snapped up Plainmoor stadium for its potential development value rather than sporting reasons.

Over the week-end I has a pint with an old associate of mine who happens to be in the Land Remediation Industry. I asked him if it is possible to build residential housing and a Stadium on a Land Fill site. The simple answer was 'Yes' and being in the industry his answers were as you would expect positive.

I asked him about the process - most of it went over my head but in summary it was about removing the cap tonnage to reveal the waste tonnage. The cap is reprocessed for engineered fill with the landfill waste segregated for processing and remediation. Simple huh!

I asked him about dewatering such a site. He told me he had just concluded a test on a Landfill site that would require dewatering at the rate of 50,000 Litres (13,200 gallons) per day in order to facilitate access to the waste, sampling the underlying soils, and backfilling the excavation. The water would be defiltered into unexcavated land and the rest would be transported to sewage plants.

When I said that must pose a challenge he retorted there are greater challenges in terms of depth of fill, surrounding housing development, environmental and road transport issue.

So what is the time scale for such a landfill project I asked: the reply was dependent on the challenge, so anywhere between 24 and 34 months. (quite time-consuming which is why I guess we have a five year plan)

I asked him about the financial consequences. He was somewhat reserved on this subject but gave me an insight of a previous council deal (not Torbay, I hasten to add). He told me capital due to remediation costs, the market Value of the site was estimated to be £nil. Once remediation was complete the Council would receive a capital receipt reflecting a percentage of the remediated value of the land. I did not push my luck in asking what the final percentage of remediated value was for the Council.

It was all very insightful stuff and did get me to add two and two together in which I conclude that Osborne wants the Plainmoor freehold on the cheap and Nightingale for £nothing. Once he has achieved that goal he is free to do what he wants with Torquay United which in my opinion is too off-load it or wind it up.

I do also question who is paying? Remediation of landfill is very expensive running into the £millions. Is Osborne putting his hand in his pockets or are the resident of Torbay expected to pay for it through a Council run environmental budgeted scheme.

Many questions to raise - but the one thing you are right about is:

Never, ever take your eye off the ball with these characters!

an interesting read

[Plainmoor78]

I hope that sale of the freehold can be averted but if not it must be under an agreement that the freehold will not revert to Osborne until a suitable alternative stadium has been built and a fair rent agreed with TUFC.

TUFC and Clarke Osbourne are not separate entities. If the stadium ever gets built he will be owner of both, so in the early phase rent won't be an issue. It will only become an issue when Osbourne decides to dispose of the club, which he will do, but by then it will be too late for the council to intervene.

[Southampton Gull]

Rent on what? I keep saying it, Osborne doesn't EVER build sports stadia!!

[standupsitdown]

So are these the mostly likely scenarios?

1. Osborne gets the freehold, builds houses on Plainmoor and builds a new ground.

1a. Osborne keeps TUFC which will continue to lose money.
1b. Osborne folds TUFC who cease to exist
1c. Osborne folds TUFC and an AFC is formed, either renting the new ground or ground sharing with a small club outside the bay, starting 3 leagues down.

2. Osborne gets the freehold, builds houses on Plainmoor but forgets to build a new ground.

2a. Osborne folds TUFC who cease to exist
2b. Osborne folds TUFC and an AFC is formed ground sharing with a small club outside the bay, starting 3 leagues down.

3. Osborne doesn’t get the freehold.

3a. Osborne folds TUFC who cease to exist
3b. Osborne folds TUFC and an AFC is formed playing at Plainmoor, starting 3 leagues down.
3c. Osborne sells TUFC if a buyer can be found. Almost certainly only if he’d accept less than he’s put in as better than nothing from administration.

Key has to be the freehold. If that goes I can’t see a future.