Mental Health, Alcoholism, Substance Abuse.....

[Southampton Gull]

I find SG's over-generalised comments to be ignorant and ill informed. Nothing to do with your so called 'snowflake' either - it's called having insight.

I find your generalisation ignorant and ill informed. I'm speaking from experience. Pissheads, cokeheads and junkies all have you running around with your tails between your legs citing mental health issues, it's addiction pure and simple. Any mental health issues would be prevalent with or without the need to indulge in excess, I'm just differentiating between the two. Typical snowflake argument that never deals with the addiction itself.

[gullpower]

I wouldn’t normally get involved in a discussion that is not Gulls related on the forum but having personal experience of those living with mental health issues I feel I must.

Clinical depression, particularly in men, can manifest itself in violent outbursts and addiction to alcohol, gambling and drugs. For some alcoholism may be self-inflicted through poor lifestyle choices and given support they may find a route out through, for example, AA. But for others it is the underlying health issue that needs to be addressed.

Clinical depression is caused through a disorder and chemical imbalance in the brain. As this is the organ that defines who we are, what we think and how we respond to the world around us it’s not surprising the routes out that those affected sometimes take. To adopt an unsympathetic attitude to those suffering from mental illness is a bit like telling a diabetic to get up out of their diabetic coma, stop eating sugar and get on with their lives and completely ignore the fact that diabetes is caused by a disorder of the pancreas.

[Southampton Gull]

Obviously I've been talking about alcoholism and not "related" illnesses mental or otherwise. Why some snowflakes can't distinguish between the two is beyond me. "Oh he's an alcoholic, he must have mental illness", no it's far more likely he/she is addicted to abusing substances but lets place it under the banner of mental illness and excuse the poor life choices. PC culture gone mad, addiction is addiction, mental health is a totally different subject which is NOT what I was referring to.

Poor life choices shouldn't be excused under the guise of mental illness, take some **** responsibility ffs!!.

[Yorkieandy]

Hopefully i'm playing devils advocate here but i think (not 100% sure) that Dave is maybe commenting about those in general who are just deadbeats in society and who use alcohol and drugs as a means to live because they are lazy and ignorant and don't take responsibility for their own actions. Actions that frequently impact on others which is what he sees regularly. I would hazard a guess that a significant number of people develop mental health problems as a consequence of long term alcohol / substance abuse due to their errant and irresponsible lifestyles rather than the addictions arising due to poor mental health initially. Therefore it's through choice that they become addicts and perhaps it's these people more that Dave is commenting on?

My bugbear about people with addictions is when they use mental health or mitigating circumstances as an excuse for being caught burgling their 108th house in a week for example. They'll get to court and moan about splitting up with their partners and 20 kids or something as a reason for it or moan that it's depression and having no money that has led them to steal someone's motorbike and ride it at 120mph through the streets of town whilst under the influence of some drug or other. They never just hold their hands up and accept they've done something idiotic and unacceptable and take the punishment. They are always trying to wriggle out of taking responsibility for their actions and acknowledge and appreciate how their actions impact on others. This is what pisses me off.

There must come a cut off point when someone (mental health issues or not) becomes responsible for their actions if it is detrimental to others.For example gambling. Somebody depressed could start gambling and then become reliant on it and then start stealing from their employers / partners to fund the habit and this has a huge knock on effect but at some point there has to be a point when they realize that it's not just themselves they are damaging but others too.

If they are single and want to go out to work then blow it all on online slots within half an hour and live off nothing for the rest of the week then that's up to them. It's when they do this then start the cycle of deception and criminality to further fund this which they know only full well is wrong and when they get challenged or caught they will cite mental health as an excuse for their behaviour which is unacceptable and puts sufferers of mental health conditions in a further bad light. There are lots of people out there with mental health conditions volunteering, fundraising and doing all sorts of positive things for themselves and others and it annoys me when they are often portrayed as people who can't control themselves or are somehow weak when in a lot of cases the addicts are simply free of mental health conditions but just have undesirable character traits.

This is one of the key issues for me and i don't think you can use mental health as an excuse for things although there is a link i agree.

[Yorkieandy]

The whole system though is a joke. There is much more awareness of mental health than ever before yet there just aren't the services available to pro actively help people. Either your GP wants to bang you on some tablets asap which generally will do more harm than good or they refer you to talk therapy and then you have to wait months to get an appointment and even when you do you get like an hour a week for six weeks. Hardly consistent and intensive. For a serious mental health problem. It's a disgrace. There are charities like MIND who offer counselling but they aren't cheap and aren't free.

It just makes me laugh when you could go into your GP and tell him you've been having low mood and a bit of anxiety for a few months (which is quite normal in most people and doesn't mean to say they have a disorder ) and immediately without any further investigations he'll stick you on some highly addictive, highly risky anti depressants which cause side effects, which mean you can't just stop taking them if you start feeling weird and just generally aren't effective.

Compare this to if you went in with ear pain and tinnutis etc. Then he'd examine your ear. Clean it out. Send you to the hospital for audiology, ear pressure testing, maybe an MRI scan of your ear, vestibular tests etc etc. But when it's your brain, the most complex organ in the human body, he just says "take these and see how you get on" barely minutes after you talking to him. No tests or nothing. It's not mentally ill people who are supposedly insane, it's GP's.

Finally about addicts and criminals. They are the ones who actually get the f**king help! The medical profession seems to bend over backwards to help those who are always getting into bother but for those of us who sit silently and suffer and don't cause any bother to anyone, we get left to wait for our help. Maybe if i went out and smashed up an Argos store then i'd get some help?

Anyway. Has Owers gone yet?!

[gullsgullsgulls]

Another long-time reader, first-time poster.

I have been following the forum for several years and feel that I have come to know the various personalities rather well (it's a bit like watching a soap opera).

Dave - I have a lot of respect of you as one of the 'elder statesmen' of the forum but I'm afraid I have had to create an account to add weight to the concerned voices surrounding your description of people with alcohol dependency issues. I am sure you have had a lot of experience in this field but this is a very nuanced area and I would expect that everyone affected by alcohol (whether self-inflicted or otherwise) will have a different tale to tell and the root causes for their current position should not be assumed or ignored. Many people who have alcohol issues are suffering with mental health issues, for example depression or PTSD or have suffered abuse in the past and I don't think that casting such afflicted individuals off without any consideration of these factors is helpful.

[Southampton Gull]

It's no surprise to me that the only person who understands what I'm saying is someone who has experienced mental health problems himself.

I see both sides of this 'debate' and have a lot more experience of the cause and effect related to alcohol abuse than most. The lies and deceptive behaviour associated with those that abuse substances including alcohol are totally different to mental health issues which anyone who knows me would know full well that I'm sympathetic towards.

Teigngull came on here making light of the situation by declaring that Torquay United have finally driven him back to drink. That's literally taking the piss out of the mental health side of the argument and then he decides to jump the fence and come out as the bastion of all that is holy about mental health. To be labelled ignorant and vacuous is laughable given my extensive experience of the subject of alcohol and associated behaviour. Two of my own children suffered the consequences of an alcoholic mother until I was granted custody. She still abuses alcohol and has never tried to stop, she's had all the attempts to identify the cause of her addiction but is just an addictive personality. Life choices not mental health issues. To label all alcoholism under mental health is ridiculous.

Thanks for your understanding, Andy. At least one person read what I'd actually written and not put words in my mouth. Interestingly one of the loudest critics works in the booze trade, quite ironic really.

[Southampton Gull]

Another long-time reader, first-time poster.

I have been following the forum for several years and feel that I have come to know the various personalities rather well (it's a bit like watching a soap opera).

Dave - I have a lot of respect of you as one of the 'elder statesmen' of the forum but I'm afraid I have had to create an account to add weight to the concerned voices surrounding your description of people with alcohol dependency issues. I am sure you have had a lot of experience in this field but this is a very nuanced area and I would expect that everyone affected by alcohol (whether self-inflicted or otherwise) will have a different tale to tell and the root causes for their current position should not be assumed or ignored. Many people who have alcohol issues are suffering with mental health issues, for example depression or PTSD or have suffered abuse in the past and I don't think that casting such afflicted individuals off without any consideration of these factors is helpful.

I'm glad my 'views' prompted you to join and contribute. Thanks for not feeling the need to insult and while I carefully read your reply my views remain unchanged but then they would because my lifetime of experiences have given me those views. I'm not ignoring or belittling mental health, as part of my job in the security industry I have a lot of experience in dealing with a significant amount of this countries less stable characters. I work very closely with military and ex military personnel so I'm well aware of issues that cause mental health problems. To just throw alcoholism into that mix is to totally ignore those that just choose to abuse substances through laziness and ignorance. I've stopped people young and old from committing suicide from choking to death on their own vomit and also stayed long into the night after a 16 hour shift listening to a young man screaming he wanted to die until the effects of his chosen substance abuse had worn off. He obviously had issues relating to his mental health and at the time he was identified as a security risk and not a health issue. This touches on Andy's reply and is far from simple so please let's not just jump to the silly conclusion that I'm ignoring the obvious, it seems others are doing that by ignoring what I actually said and not even realising there is a difference.

I'm far from ignorant and far from being vacuous.

[TorquayDNA]

Dave mate, you're getting yourself into a hole. What is addiction if not (at least in part) a mental health illness? Read the NHS guidelines https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-bo ... hat-is-it/

Your initial comments proclaiming that people with addictions only have themselves to blame is what has got our backs up. You seem to be bundling binge drinkers and addicts into the same category which is absurd.

Just think about what you're saying.

[Southampton Gull]

Not at all. You're the one failing to make the distinction. Next you'll be telling me that ADHD is a real "condition" ................

[merse btpir]

my views remain unchanged but then they would because my lifetime of experiences have given me those views.

It's not been nice reading this thread and appalling reading some of the ill-informed statements being made. Like Dave my views are fashioned out of personal experience and I guess that's where all of us are coming from.

I experienced the death of a young girl who was in my care because of her alcoholism ~ a young girl suffering mental health issues and using alcohol as an anasthaetic against the mental torture of living with the trauma of the mental scars of being sexually abused as a primary school child by a church pastor. An abuse that was covered up for many years in the cause of maintaining 'respect' amongst peers ~ there are many thousands of such child abuse cases coming to light and they all have terrible repercussions for the victims man of whom turned to alcohol to cushion the pain and even madness inflicted on them. Many of thier relatives also then turn to alcohol for the very same reasons.

I would no more think of her as a 'pisshead' than I would any other unfortunate street drinker/rough sleeper/social outcast I see on the streets on a regular and daily basis. It is simply not for us to judge...everybody we see like that has a tale to tell.

I was not a 'snowflake' in my care for her; but I did my best to be caring and compassionate; responsible and protective, But it was all in vain and the subsequent venting of anger and retribution brought about the end of my relationship with her mother, the loss of my home and the need to rebuild my life in middle age from the bottom upwards again.

Please do not throw needless generalisations about on this subject and remember that everybody making strong statements on this more than likely have them to make for very personal reasons.

I will not comment again on this subject.

[Yorkieandy]

It's a very good post Merse and just goes to show how many lives are affected by mental illness / addictions and not just the sufferer themselves and it's progress that people are debating things like this out in the open now. Perhaps there could be a separate thread somewhere on this site for people to post and discuss such issues as i don't feel clogging up a thread about Gary Owers with serious and sensitive posts such as this is the most appropriate way to go about things although i'm guilty as charged on that score.

[Southampton Gull]

Merse, she was in your care as a result of her mental health, not her alcoholism. There's a world of difference between those two statements. The alcoholism was a result of her mental health and I wasn't referring to those that medicate with drink. I wouldn't wish your experiences, hers or even mine on anyone else but that doesn't mean they can't be aired shared or discussed. I've been accused of allsorts on this thread yet the one person who can understand my point of view while demonstrating he disagrees with it just happens to suffer from very real mental health issues yet is subjected to an almost daily barrage of insults simply because his condition means he would rather realign his loyalties in football than stick with a toxic setup.

Who are the ignorant and vacuous among us, it's certainly not I.

[Southampton Gull]

It's a very good post Merse and just goes to show how many lives are affected by mental illness / addictions and not just the sufferer themselves and it's progress that people are debating things like this out in the open now. Perhaps there could be a separate thread somewhere on this site for people to post and discuss such issues as i don't feel clogging up a thread about Gary Owers with serious and sensitive posts such as this is the most appropriate way to go about things although i'm guilty as charged on that score.

I'll start a thread on another board and try to move most of the "offending" posts.

[Yorkieandy]

I'll start a thread on another board and try to move most of the "offending" posts.

nice one Dave