Bolton and Bury

[davethegull2]

I agree with Dawlishmatt. While i feel for the fans, their team CHEATED by spending more than they had. By doing so, they CHEATED every point on their way to Promotion. I have no sympathy for The GAWS or the Greeks and believe they should have been thrown out of the league after CHEATING. The Cornish stole money from local suppliers and then insulted them with .07p in the pound. The Greeks stole money from the Football fund to build a new stand and spent it on players. ANY team that cheats should be automatically relegated.

[Southampton Gull]

I feel so sorry for the fans of Bury FC at being kicked out of the football league. What gets me angry is that so many football clubs have deliberately got themselves into a financial mess in the pursuit of glory. I can think of many other clubs, Bournemouth is a prime example as are Plymouth and Luton Town. A few seasons ago, Bournemouth were in league 2 having gone into administration and starting the new season on minus 10 or 12 points. In the same season, Luton Town started on minus 15 or 20 points. Somehow Bournemouth stayed up whilst Luton were relegated to the conference. I remember well the Bournemouth situation and in particular reading about one small business going bust as a result of not being paid the £30,000 they were owed by the club. Just a few years later, Bournemouth are doing well in the Premier league, getting £120,000,000 per season in television money and Luton are doing well in the championship.
I remember in the early 1980s attending an emergency open meeting at the Old Torquay technical college where the late Tony Boyce who was then chairman, explained to those present the dire financial position of the club.
Throughout the last 40 years or so, clubs like Torquay have survived by selling some of their assets, namely their best players. As a result Torquay have spent most of this time in the lowest league. When Mike Bateson owned the club, he made sure that we were financially sound and even when we did get promoted, we were relegated the following season because the club could not afford to buy the players needed to progress. Torquay United have always played by the rules and as a result have not had consistent success such as clubs like Bournemouth who have gained 3 promotions in recent years and now find themselves raking in the millions.
I believe that any club that deliberately get into debt and goes into administration should be kicked out of the football league.

For once I'm in total agreement with everything you say.

[TorquayDNA]

You're absolutely right DawlishMatt, and that same thinking should be applied to business in general. How many times have we seen cowboy building trades go into adminstration leaving all their debt behind, then start up again the next day with a tiny name change? And I've seen the effects this has on the poor subbies who have to face financial ruin because they haven't been paid for however many month's work.

However, this has a special relevance for the sport industry as these are institutions which have heritage and a unique fanbase, to whom the club is really 'their' club. These fans have a sense of ownership and to many it's like an extra member of the family, and when that club dies it's a huge loss to a lot of people.

There is clearly a governance problem with the EFL and I hope that it is forced to be subject to independent review (it is answerable only to itself at the moment, IE the football clubs that make up the EFL also make up the rules). I do worry that as more sharks snaffle up these lower-tier clubs to use as investment vehicles and dispose of when done, the EFL rules are only going to head in one direction as the same sharks make and enforce the 'rules'.

It's thoroughly unsustainable and that's why we're seeing the first signs of the rot sucking the life out of the most vulnerable clubs. Sadly, the picture painted by DawlishMatt seems to be the way TUFC is heading - relative success on the pitch at a crippling and terminal price to the balance sheet.

[exilegull]

I feel so sorry for the fans of Bury FC at being kicked out of the football league. What gets me angry is that so many football clubs have deliberately got themselves into a financial mess in the pursuit of glory. I can think of many other clubs, Bournemouth is a prime example as are Plymouth and Luton Town. A few seasons ago, Bournemouth were in league 2 having gone into administration and starting the new season on minus 10 or 12 points. In the same season, Luton Town started on minus 15 or 20 points. Somehow Bournemouth stayed up whilst Luton were relegated to the conference. I remember well the Bournemouth situation and in particular reading about one small business going bust as a result of not being paid the £30,000 they were owed by the club. Just a few years later, Bournemouth are doing well in the Premier league, getting £120,000,000 per season in television money and Luton are doing well in the championship.
I remember in the early 1980s attending an emergency open meeting at the Old Torquay technical college where the late Tony Boyce who was then chairman, explained to those present the dire financial position of the club.
Throughout the last 40 years or so, clubs like Torquay have survived by selling some of their assets, namely their best players. As a result Torquay have spent most of this time in the lowest league. When Mike Bateson owned the club, he made sure that we were financially sound and even when we did get promoted, we were relegated the following season because the club could not afford to buy the players needed to progress. Torquay United have always played by the rules and as a result have not had consistent success such as clubs like Bournemouth who have gained 3 promotions in recent years and now find themselves raking in the millions.
[highlight=yellow]I believe that any club that deliberately get into debt and goes into administration should be kicked out of the football league.[/highlight]

This is a difficult one and while not completely disagreeing with the sentiment I don't think this is practical.

A business generally goes through administration as it is short term overindebted, but longer term it is a viable business. Creditors agree to take pennies in the pound as the alternative is liquidation and the likelihood is they get less. For a league football club that is in financially difficulty, the most valuable part of the business is its football league membership, with the associated revenues, prize money, sponsorship and gates. If administration resulted in automatic expulsion, it simply wouldn't happen - it will always make more sense for total liquidation and to start from scratch. This would be no better for non football creditors and football creditors would also lose out, unlike in administration where they are protected.

[dawlishmatt]

Thank goodness we've got uncle Clarke bankrolling us, I'm sure you will agree Southampton Gull?

[culmstockgull]

Buying promotion has been going on since football existed and unless there is a wage cap it will never change. The analogy with Bournemouth is spurious in that the only way the club still exists is that they have a Russian with deep pockets totally funding the club, maximum crowds of 12000 and a wage bill of over 25 million a season just do not add up. Its Bury and Bolton this week, take your pick on the next club to fall, because believe me it will happen and will gather pace. The EFL and the FA have a lot of questions to answer in their mismanagement of the league and football in general.
Unless constructive ways are found to balance the power and finance between the premier and league without threatening the existence of both then we are just storing up problems for the future.

[Southampton Gull]

Thank goodness we've got uncle Clarke bankrolling us, I'm sure you will agree Southampton Gull?

Obviously not but for now I'm happy to see us playing decent football thanks to GJ!!

[dawlishmatt]

Southampton Gull.

[dawlishmatt]

Seriously Southampton Gull, if Clarke Osborne ever stopped funding the club, I don't think that we would be in trouble because the two previous parties interested in taking over Torquay United, Norman Smurthwaite and Peter Masters are both without a club, indeed Smurthwaite put in an offer only last week to buy Bury FC with the full approval of the football league, which was rejected by the Bury Owner even though he still holds a 30% stake in Port Vale. Smurthwaite also purchased a property in the South Hams last year.

[culmstockgull]

Please, lets not get into the fantasy world of Smurthwaite and Masters, both are the same as the owner of Bury who drove them into non existence, Port vale almost and Truro consigned to southern league, both wanted to make a shed load of money at the expense of their respective clubs. If the EFl was run properly both would have been red flagged years ago.

[Road2League2]

Scary how many similarities there are between Steve Dale and Clarke Osborn. What can we do as a fan base to form an understanding/bridge of communication with him to ensure this will never happen to our club? COYY

[dawlishmatt]

Road2 League2, I think that the way to engage with Clarke Osborne is via his right hand man George Edwards. Perhaps someone like Merse or even our own Southampton Gull can form a group of supporters and approach Edwards and write a letter to the club requesting a meeting with George Edwards.

[Bristol_Gull]

It’s a real shame - I really feel for their supporters and hope they can find some alternative way forward.

Looking for a silver lining...I wonder if they had any decent CBs that fancy relocating down south?!

[SuperNickyWroe]

Fact is Bury had become financially unviable. What are the EFL supposed to do?
Their promotion last season was achieved through spending money they didn't have, thus giving themselves an unfair advantage over more financially responsible clubs who at least pay their employees on time.

You seem to be missing the fact that it was one - or maybe three people that put Bury in the sh1t.
The EFL could have done more.

[budegull1954]

It’s a real shame - I really feel for their supporters and hope they can find some alternative way forward.

Looking for a silver lining...I wonder if they had any decent CBs that fancy relocating down south?!

Neil Danns (Bury captain and midfielder) may well be looking for a job - half his old team mates are now down the road in Plymouth!