I don't particularly see the point in blaming players for missing penalties. Someone has to score. Someone is going to miss. Its a lottery.
Waters had completely sent their keeper the wrong way. Is slipping over at the last second actually his fault. Who knows but to mind it was indicative of our luck (or lack of it on the day). Buse's penalty would most times have ended up in the net after it hit the underside of the bar - it really has nothing to do with how high the goal was.
Who knows what would have happened if Camerons goals had stood - it would hardly have done us any harm though. They had an inept goalkeeper who was at fault and repeatedly made mistakes for both disallowed goals and Covalans header. He was directly at fault for all three goals and getting two of them chalked off was the result of a ludicrous and one sided referee who was as bad as I've ever seen.
It wasn't just the goals though, shirt pulling, time wasting, red card offences. He turned a blind eye to everything else. To say he didn't influence the result of the game is laughable.
Are some Referees Corrupt?
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Pooliephil
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What red card offences?brucie wrote: ↑22 Jun 2021, 16:04 I don't particularly see the point in blaming players for missing penalties. Someone has to score. Someone is going to miss. Its a lottery.
Waters had completely sent their keeper the wrong way. Is slipping over at the last second actually his fault. Who knows but to mind it was indicative of our luck (or lack of it on the day). Buse's penalty would most times have ended up in the net after it hit the underside of the bar - it really has nothing to do with how high the goal was.
Who knows what would have happened if Camerons goals had stood - it would hardly have done us any harm though. They had an inept goalkeeper who was at fault and repeatedly made mistakes for both disallowed goals and Covalans header. He was directly at fault for all three goals and getting two of them chalked off was the result of a ludicrous and one sided referee who was as bad as I've ever seen.
It wasn't just the goals though, shirt pulling, time wasting, red card offences. He turned a blind eye to everything else. To say he didn't influence the result of the game is laughable.
Do you mean Lewis? He should have had a second yellow for dissent
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portugull
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If this Play Off Final had been refereed by a competent and unbiased official we would not have had extra time and pens.
The score would have been 3-1 to Torquay had this incompetent Official not disallowed 2 perfectly good goals by Kyle Cameron.
Even some of the Pools Fans are saying they got away with it because of his decisions.
The score would have been 3-1 to Torquay had this incompetent Official not disallowed 2 perfectly good goals by Kyle Cameron.
Even some of the Pools Fans are saying they got away with it because of his decisions.
I don't want to come across in the wrong manner, the decision to rule out those two goals was simply awful, think we all agree on that.
Totally agree with Modgull here, it has to be understood if one of those goals had been allowed, Colovan would not have gone up in the 95th minute so that goal would never have happened, if both goals had stood, then Hartlepool would have made the same attacking substitutions Torquay did, and our team would have sat deeper and deeper in the closing minutes as Hartlepool did, so maybe they would have snatched a late equaliser, that something we'll never know.
It has to be understood we're national league, we're bottom of the food chain, we will get referees who are still learning their trade, and so be it. Without referees there is 'no' football, how can young or upcoming referees learn their trade if they can't officiate in big games, the national league and F.A would probably say they gave us a top referee at our level, after all Simon Mather promotion to the EFL means he was through out the season a top scoring match official. No they won't give us VAR.
No the referee didn't cheat, he wasn't corrupt, and I'm surprised the insinuation, that he was brought be someone either close to Hartlepool or maybe even the club itself has been allowed to stand, this maybe an unofficial fans forum but there are lines.
Simon Mather was guilty of being to quick to judge which led to him making two massive mistakes, but he would have done so, as said in good faith, he didn't do it to spoil some's day or because he doesn't like Torquay, as said also, we've benefitted in past, this time we were the victims of those mistakes.
The referee didn't cost the game, we can look at our defending from set pieces, particularly in the first half and thank Lucas for keeping us in the game, for all of our possession in the second half and through extra time we didn't trouble their keeper enough, then Lucas set up the win in the penalty shoot out and the team didn't capitalise on it.
But all that said above, one thing I'm certain about is this constant referring back to those disallowed goals , is becoming embarrassing now. We have no choice to accept defeat and seriously now 'move on' all our focus and effort now has to go forward to next season, and make sure we put it right
Totally agree with Modgull here, it has to be understood if one of those goals had been allowed, Colovan would not have gone up in the 95th minute so that goal would never have happened, if both goals had stood, then Hartlepool would have made the same attacking substitutions Torquay did, and our team would have sat deeper and deeper in the closing minutes as Hartlepool did, so maybe they would have snatched a late equaliser, that something we'll never know.
It has to be understood we're national league, we're bottom of the food chain, we will get referees who are still learning their trade, and so be it. Without referees there is 'no' football, how can young or upcoming referees learn their trade if they can't officiate in big games, the national league and F.A would probably say they gave us a top referee at our level, after all Simon Mather promotion to the EFL means he was through out the season a top scoring match official. No they won't give us VAR.
No the referee didn't cheat, he wasn't corrupt, and I'm surprised the insinuation, that he was brought be someone either close to Hartlepool or maybe even the club itself has been allowed to stand, this maybe an unofficial fans forum but there are lines.
Simon Mather was guilty of being to quick to judge which led to him making two massive mistakes, but he would have done so, as said in good faith, he didn't do it to spoil some's day or because he doesn't like Torquay, as said also, we've benefitted in past, this time we were the victims of those mistakes.
The referee didn't cost the game, we can look at our defending from set pieces, particularly in the first half and thank Lucas for keeping us in the game, for all of our possession in the second half and through extra time we didn't trouble their keeper enough, then Lucas set up the win in the penalty shoot out and the team didn't capitalise on it.
But all that said above, one thing I'm certain about is this constant referring back to those disallowed goals , is becoming embarrassing now. We have no choice to accept defeat and seriously now 'move on' all our focus and effort now has to go forward to next season, and make sure we put it right
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Plainmoor78
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It would never have been 3-1. Had we been leading 2-1 Covolan wouldn't have gone up for the corner, even had it been 1-1 I don't think Covolan would have gone up.
It's time to put this behind us, nothing is going to change. If the fans are hurting, I bet the players and staff are hurting more and they need to get over this quickly because the new season will soon be upon us and everybody needs to be in a positive frame of mind for the new challenge.
I'm sorry but as a neutral with a soft spot for Torquay, this referee bashing is becoming insane.
Here's what I saw -
Hartlepool had a goal disallowed for a push, very similar to the push Wright did to the Hartlepool player for Torquay's disallowed goal. For what it's worth, I believe by the letter of the law, the referee made the CORRECT call. Alternatively, the referee could have decided to take the view that it's a man's game and it was only a "little push to give the striker space" (which is still a foul used to gain an unfair advantage) as Adam Virgo said on BT Sport. If that goal stood, then so should Hartlepool's first disallowed goal. Both had pushes and both used these pushes to gain an unfair advantage, the referee has to draw the line and he made that call. VAR would have 100% disallowed both those goals. Of the 6 "pundits" (2 commentators, 3 pundits and presenter) only Chris Hargreaves and Adam Virgo thought the goal should have stood, the other 4 said the referee made the correct call.
My next criticism of the referee is that a Torquay player had his arm in the arm and used it to block a Hartlepool shot. That was a penalty but was not given.
The referee then dropped an absolute clanger. There is no doubt that the second disallowed goal should have stood.
My next criticism of the referee is with Torquay's given goal. Asa Hall clearly impeded Hartlepool's goalkeeper - watch the replay if you don't believe me. For what it's worth, I feel that goal should have been disallowed but because of the second disallowed goal, I do not believe the referee would have dared to disallow a third goal. VAR would have disallowed this. Torquay captain had no interest in going for the ball, puts arms out and blocks Hartlepool keeper. Weak from the keeper but a foul. In any event, because the referee gave it - JUSTICE was done.
For goals that should have counted, 1-1 seemed fair.
Torquay's players lost a bit of discipline. Andrews refused to come off, a Torquay player kicked a Hartlepool player in his balls when he was on the floor (a straight red - see Rooney vs Portugal, not as violent but still violent conduct and a straight red) and I must admit I was surprised at how the commentators laughed it off, at the end of the day you can't kick somebody in their balls after the whistle intentionally and expect to stay on the pitch.
In terms of the Hartlepool fan who says Lewis should have been sent off for dissent when he threw the ball down. By the letter of the law, he should have and if the referee had used the letter of the law, Torquay would have had 9 players in extra time but he didn't. And I don't blame him for not sending Lewis off as football is a passionate game, emotions are high and he lost his cool. For what it's worth, the referee made a good call in using his discretion and not sending Lewis off (although the kick to the balls really should have been a red).
And there we have it, some good calls from the ref, two big mistakes (the 2nd disallowed goal went against Torquay, the Covolan goal not being disallowed went in favour of Torquay, and Torquay were fortunate not to have two players sent off), I fail to see how the referee was corrupt or even biased.
I understand why emotions are high, but my advice to Torquay fans accusing the referee of being corrupt to take a week off, get some distance, have a what in Torquay's favour and against again after the dust has settled and I'm sure if you can take the emotion away from the decisions that you will have a different perspective.
I hope Torquay win the league next season.
Here's what I saw -
Hartlepool had a goal disallowed for a push, very similar to the push Wright did to the Hartlepool player for Torquay's disallowed goal. For what it's worth, I believe by the letter of the law, the referee made the CORRECT call. Alternatively, the referee could have decided to take the view that it's a man's game and it was only a "little push to give the striker space" (which is still a foul used to gain an unfair advantage) as Adam Virgo said on BT Sport. If that goal stood, then so should Hartlepool's first disallowed goal. Both had pushes and both used these pushes to gain an unfair advantage, the referee has to draw the line and he made that call. VAR would have 100% disallowed both those goals. Of the 6 "pundits" (2 commentators, 3 pundits and presenter) only Chris Hargreaves and Adam Virgo thought the goal should have stood, the other 4 said the referee made the correct call.
My next criticism of the referee is that a Torquay player had his arm in the arm and used it to block a Hartlepool shot. That was a penalty but was not given.
The referee then dropped an absolute clanger. There is no doubt that the second disallowed goal should have stood.
My next criticism of the referee is with Torquay's given goal. Asa Hall clearly impeded Hartlepool's goalkeeper - watch the replay if you don't believe me. For what it's worth, I feel that goal should have been disallowed but because of the second disallowed goal, I do not believe the referee would have dared to disallow a third goal. VAR would have disallowed this. Torquay captain had no interest in going for the ball, puts arms out and blocks Hartlepool keeper. Weak from the keeper but a foul. In any event, because the referee gave it - JUSTICE was done.
For goals that should have counted, 1-1 seemed fair.
Torquay's players lost a bit of discipline. Andrews refused to come off, a Torquay player kicked a Hartlepool player in his balls when he was on the floor (a straight red - see Rooney vs Portugal, not as violent but still violent conduct and a straight red) and I must admit I was surprised at how the commentators laughed it off, at the end of the day you can't kick somebody in their balls after the whistle intentionally and expect to stay on the pitch.
In terms of the Hartlepool fan who says Lewis should have been sent off for dissent when he threw the ball down. By the letter of the law, he should have and if the referee had used the letter of the law, Torquay would have had 9 players in extra time but he didn't. And I don't blame him for not sending Lewis off as football is a passionate game, emotions are high and he lost his cool. For what it's worth, the referee made a good call in using his discretion and not sending Lewis off (although the kick to the balls really should have been a red).
And there we have it, some good calls from the ref, two big mistakes (the 2nd disallowed goal went against Torquay, the Covolan goal not being disallowed went in favour of Torquay, and Torquay were fortunate not to have two players sent off), I fail to see how the referee was corrupt or even biased.
I understand why emotions are high, but my advice to Torquay fans accusing the referee of being corrupt to take a week off, get some distance, have a what in Torquay's favour and against again after the dust has settled and I'm sure if you can take the emotion away from the decisions that you will have a different perspective.
I hope Torquay win the league next season.
The referee was inept, to suggest he was corrupt, bribed or any other such aspersion is just ludicrous.
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UnitedinDevon
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Do you think Hartlepool in in Yorkshire?portugull wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 19:50 I have watched Pro Football for 67 years.
I have thought very carefully about what I am going to say. Yesterdays Match was televised Live by BT Sport and Mr Mather the Referee from Yorkshire I believe
disallowed not ONE but TWO perfectly good goals by Kyle Cameron. The second one convinced me that something very sinister was happening.
Had the Referee been bought? It does not matter who you talk to EVERYONE including the Pundits on BT Sport thought the decisions were wrong.
I believe the Winning Team yesterday will receive £2 million pounds for Promotion back to the EFL. I may be wrong on this point but a lot of money is involved.
What will the Referees Assessor make of his performance?
Connor Lemonheigh Evans was brought down No Penalty. A very similar foul when we played at Stockport recently and a pen was given.
The foul on Moxhey was a straight Red. Not given.
At least 5 times our Players nearly had their shirts ripped off. Mr Mather ignored them all.
Was this Referee bribed? I do not know but it looks very very suspicious to me.
I would like to see a full Enquiry into this Referee and I hope we NEVER have to suffer him again. Disgraceful sums it up.
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Teigngull
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Now then
' is Simon Mather Teigngull in disguise ' ?
If he was then surely he wouldn't have been allowed to officiate this match because of a distinct lack of neutrality !
Is Simon Mather corrupt ? NO of course he's not you daft sods, he got more than one decision wrong & if it was the other way around we'd all be as pleased as hell.
It takes me back to the late 80's early 90's when after entering the old social club in the corner of the pop side, the first thing we'd do is check who's reffing the game & if a certain Mr K Cooper of Pontypridd was officiating it was pretty damn sure nailed on a Torquay victory was unlikely ! Was he corrupt ? NO, was he useless ? YES in our eyes he was.
But to suggest we have corrupt officials in our game is pathetic, we lost a football match in controversial circumstances, we missed 3 penalties & as GJ rightly says you can't expect to win if you do that.
' is Simon Mather Teigngull in disguise ' ?
If he was then surely he wouldn't have been allowed to officiate this match because of a distinct lack of neutrality !
Is Simon Mather corrupt ? NO of course he's not you daft sods, he got more than one decision wrong & if it was the other way around we'd all be as pleased as hell.
It takes me back to the late 80's early 90's when after entering the old social club in the corner of the pop side, the first thing we'd do is check who's reffing the game & if a certain Mr K Cooper of Pontypridd was officiating it was pretty damn sure nailed on a Torquay victory was unlikely ! Was he corrupt ? NO, was he useless ? YES in our eyes he was.
But to suggest we have corrupt officials in our game is pathetic, we lost a football match in controversial circumstances, we missed 3 penalties & as GJ rightly says you can't expect to win if you do that.
Robbed by a biased ref and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Shameful. Pools probably have the worst “fans” who probably have nothing else in their lives just feeding off other peoples success as if it was their own, probably all sat in their mums back bedroom playing fifa with the curtains closed 24/7.
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Southampton Gull
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Saying no officials are corrupt is just idiocy.
Corruption is rife in society so I'm sure more than one ref is. Do I think the official from Sundays game is? No, he's just another inept referee.
I accepted our defeat immediately. Was I happy about it? Obviously not but our luck has been missing all year after our exceptional start to the season. It seems lady luck wasn't in our side but I feel this season has been uplifting and its been a pleasure witnessing our journey.
Time to move on and start thinking about next season now.
Corruption is rife in society so I'm sure more than one ref is. Do I think the official from Sundays game is? No, he's just another inept referee.
I accepted our defeat immediately. Was I happy about it? Obviously not but our luck has been missing all year after our exceptional start to the season. It seems lady luck wasn't in our side but I feel this season has been uplifting and its been a pleasure witnessing our journey.
Time to move on and start thinking about next season now.
Dave
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Teigngull
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Entirely agree on every word, well said that man.Southampton Gull wrote: ↑23 Jun 2021, 09:07 Saying no officials are corrupt is just idiocy.
Corruption is rife in society so I'm sure more than one ref is. Do I think the official from Sundays game is? No, he's just another inept referee.
I accepted our defeat immediately. Was I happy about it? Obviously not but our luck has been missing all year after our exceptional start to the season. It seems lady luck wasn't in our side but I feel this season has been uplifting and its been a pleasure witnessing our journey.
Time to move on and start thinking about next season now.
Now onwards & upwards
TG
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SuperNickyWroe
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Agree Dave, it's gone.Southampton Gull wrote: ↑23 Jun 2021, 09:07 Saying no officials are corrupt is just idiocy.
Corruption is rife in society so I'm sure more than one ref is. Do I think the official from Sundays game is? No, he's just another inept referee.
I accepted our defeat immediately. Was I happy about it? Obviously not but our luck has been missing all year after our exceptional start to the season. It seems lady luck wasn't in our side but I feel this season has been uplifting and its been a pleasure witnessing our journey.
Time to move on and start thinking about next season now.
I'm already looking forward to next season with GJ in charge.
As for refs, the only thing I will say is that in my other sport, the Super League in Rugby, the refs are full time pro's and even then some of them are useless.
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Yeah, the referee wasn't corrupt just had a really poor performance which unfortunately went against us overall.
Stings a little that the referee still got promoted after that performance whereas Torquay are still in the National League for at least another season but hopefully we'll be stronger this season, just as we were this season compared with 2019-20.
Stings a little that the referee still got promoted after that performance whereas Torquay are still in the National League for at least another season but hopefully we'll be stronger this season, just as we were this season compared with 2019-20.
Appreciate your views on the game but not sure at all how you game to this conclusion. Watching it back, Hall spends virtually the entire time watching the ball. He's in a position where he's anticipating the ball's going to come, he glances once to check the position of his marker, looks back at the ball, quick glance again at the position of his marker (who has now dropped off) before watching the cross and jumping for it. If Covalan wasn't there he had a good chance of getting the ball along with Sherring. The goalkeeper was nowhere near it and clattered in to Hall, not the other way around.Scientist wrote: ↑22 Jun 2021, 19:41 My next criticism of the referee is with Torquay's given goal. Asa Hall clearly impeded Hartlepool's goalkeeper - watch the replay if you don't believe me. For what it's worth, I feel that goal should have been disallowed but because of the second disallowed goal, I do not believe the referee would have dared to disallow a third goal. VAR would have disallowed this. Torquay captain had no interest in going for the ball, puts arms out and blocks Hartlepool keeper. Weak from the keeper but a foul. In any event, because the referee gave it - JUSTICE was done.
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