Torquay vs Crawley

[shaunicus]

Going by your 'best forward line in the division' comment, your Ellis argument doesn't hold water considering Burnley are a decent Championship side. And besides, it was a PSF - a glorified training match where tackling is essentially outlawed. It means feck all.

Ellis is good enough at this level - he's proven that in the past. I agree he gets caught out of position too easily at times but we need some aggression/power at the back.

[blueboy]

Sounds like Crawley were very impressive, we have them on 3rd September and don't hold too many hopes. I don't disagree with SG at all as have always said I think we'll be in and around the playoffs this year and certainly won't win it. While promotion this season would be great, ultimately it's a 2 year goal.

The game against Macclesfield was painful to watch at times but we've looked much more solid since Smith (the right back that played against you) was dropped and have only conceded 1 in 2 since. Zebroski has struggled but he needs to be given time. Some of our fans are so unrealistic and inpatient and it really gets on my nerves. No team brings in 15 new players then walk the league.

It's been a decent start from you and better than alot of you were predicting, guess we'll have a clearer picture in the next 5 or 6 games. See you have Dagenham next, think that'll be a close game settled by an odd goal. They've started pretty well.

For how much stick Stevens get's I thought he looked a danger against us, especially in the first half. I also cursed it by saying Oastler looked like he was bad positionally only for him to get in the L2 team of the week lol.

[friendlygas]

Dave,
You are probably right especially as we are on their patch saturday week.We will certainly have to play one helluva lot better than we played yesterday however as you well know its how you play on the day. Just wish Zeb would start to perform.Anyinsah is a real loss for us as well.He was so strong until Northampton took him out of the game. We played well defensively yesterday but that was about it. I really don't think we have played anywhere near our full ability yet so will just wait and see how we are at Crawley. Stanley and Gill seem to be improving and hopefully will continue to do so. It will be interesting to see what Crawley are like after their first defeat..its quite an amazing run they are on ,something like 34 unbeaten games albeit that the majority of those were BSP.Its still some record but their new polayers seem to have gelled in well.I had the feeling you would beat them yesterday but it sounds like they murdered you so if you are basing it on how we were against you then yes we dont have a chance!! Thankfully football is a funny old game and i look at our squad and see in it the capability to beat Crawley IF we play to the full potential on the day. its a big IF though at present. I would imagine we will take a big following up there as we have them one week and Bradford the next but i imagine it will be one or the other for a lot of supporters with the cost.Personally i shall go to both but they will both be tough games.

[Dave]

There are times as fans when walking away after a match, where you simply have to stick your hands in the air and accept your team was beaten by a better team and this was the case yesterday.

Crawley stood head and shoulders above us, i am not to concerned about that however on the evidence of pre-seaon i fully belived we had atop 10 side here, ive seen us against Burton,Rovers and Crawley and still belive we can finish top 10.

[Father Jack]

It all depends where the income from the benefactor gets counted. The consensus is that not only are they paying big transfer fees (£150,000 for Barnett for instance must be the highest in League 2) but they also pay big wages (if Cheltenham are to be believed in relation to Wes Thomas)
I believe that the salary cap is based on turnover and if the sugar daddy (or is it sugar mummy?) pays in cash rather than giving a loan to subsidise then this would be OK.
What happens when the benefactor gets bored with writing out huge cheques and the team stops it's upward progress is a different matter - as Argyle can testify.

I assume you got that figure from Wiki? I have also seen that he was available for 75k (plus add ons) last season.

Only Crawley and Thomas know what wages he's on. You can afford more in wages if you dont have to pay a transfer fee or relocation expenses

Yes it is based on turnover so unless Crawley were inflating the gate figures, then even cash would show up somewhere so wouldnt be ok.
You have to show all the income you have coming into the club (gate receipts/sponsorship/etc etc) and show the outgoing figures that show a maximun or 60% (or whatever it is now) on player wages/bonuses. I suspect the days of brown envelopes are behind us (although with Evans history perhaps not?)

[Dave]

I assume you got that figure from Wiki? I have also seen that he was available for 75k (plus add ons) last season.

Only Crawley and Thomas know what wages he's on. You can afford more in wages if you dont have to pay a transfer fee or relocation expenses

Yes it is based on turnover so unless Crawley were inflating the gate figures, then even cash would show up somewhere so wouldnt be ok.
You have to show all the income you have coming into the club (gate receipts/sponsorship/etc etc) and show the outgoing figures that show a maximun or 60% (or whatever it is now) on player wages/bonuses. I suspect the days of brown envelopes are behind us (although with Evans history perhaps not?)

I believe the practise is called creative accountancy, not accusing anyone here of malpractise, however i have not run into a single buisnessman yet that declares all his/its cash which i am sure you know.

[Southampton Gull]

Going by your 'best forward line in the division' comment, your Ellis argument doesn't hold water considering Burnley are a decent Championship side. And besides, it was a PSF - a glorified training match where tackling is essentially outlawed. It means feck all.

Ellis is good enough at this level - he's proven that in the past. I agree he gets caught out of position too easily at times but we need some aggression/power at the back.

I watched both games, did you?

Ellis against Burnley was all over the place, caught out of position time after time and couldn't even get the basics right. Saah yesterday was given the runaround by better players but did at least compete. Buckle before him and now Ling both seem to agree with my assessment, so I'd say my argument does hold water and if Ellis had the needed ability and desire it wouldn't have mattered whether it was a pre-season friendly or not. If you think Ellis can provide more aggression and power than Robertson or Saah then I think you're mistaken. What he does add is a genuine threat at set-piece situations but as Crawley were so quick on the counter yesterday I think the scoreline would have been embarrassing if Ellis was in the side.

[Father Jack]

I believe the practise is called creative accountancy, not accusing anyone here of malpractise, however i have not run into a single buisnessman yet that declares all his/its cash which i am sure you know.

Thats as maybe but all players contracts are lodged with the FL, so any difference between the sum at the FL and the sum in the balance sheets would flag up pretty quickly.

[Dave]

To put my sixth penath into this Ellis discussion for what its worth, before the game yesterday we were talikg about defence, i said its my belief that Ellis allways looks a strong powerful defender against long ball sides, yet come up against a team wo pass the ball around the box like Oxford and Bury home last season he is like a fish out of water.

I have said this before on here, iw ent to the Buckland devon bowl game last season , where you could here everyting the players were saying, if i had a £1 for every time Bevan shouted , "Ellis your out of position" or "Elllis get back in " even heard "Ellis stop wanderng" i would have gone home pretty happy, god it was painful to hear.

Pre-season games are not just about getting fit and having a jolly, there about catching the managers eye and saying to him look at me i am worth a spot in your opening 11, also what you do in a training helps, yet Martin Ling, and Shaun Taylor thus far have not though him worthy of a starting place, what that does tell us all ?

[Neal]

Intersting re the Ellis debate, I agree with whoever said that he looks good against the long ball teams, gets in with his head hard and puts himself around a bit. But against fluent passing sides, no, I dont think so. And yes Buckle and Ling obviously think the same. Its a shame, and you would hope he is workig on that part of his game, or does that come natural, you either have it or you dont, I dont know, but I would imagine you can learn anything if you really want to.

My take on it so far, Ive seen 3 away games, and to be honest Im quielty confident of a mid table finish. There are a number of good teams who we will struggle against, thats for sure, but there are some poor teams as wel and we will have to nail those games, and I thnk we will

D&R away draw for me.

[AustrianAndyGull]

My projected points tally for the games already played was 4, a win v Burton and a draw at Aldershot with defeats coming at Rovers and v Crawley. It has worked out differently of course but we still have 3 points more than i expected at this stage. Lets just forget the Crawley defeat as a bad day at the office and against a side far superior and crack on with preparation for the game at Daggers. Daggers have started well and i tipped them to be at the bottom somewhere so it will be a toughie. If we get a point i will be pleased. COYY!

[Father Jack]

Gav Tomlin seems to be playing well for them at present

[Plymouthgull]

On balance, I would give Ellis another chance - not impressed with Saah at all! I think he is poor with high balls, does not sound like a leader and really does look conference standard. Indeed, all the back four were very quiet yesterday and there appearsto be a lack of leadership in our defence as a whole. Also thought Mc Phee and Morris had minimimal impact yesterday (Morris did not look particularly interested. Time to try Macklin

[Father Jack]

He's young and full of potential but he gets caught out of position far too much and it's no surprise to me that Branston felt he just couldn't play alongside Ellis.

Just a matter of interest, when do players stop being "young and full of potential" and become "unfulfilled promise" so to speak?

Hes been here for what, 4 years? and must have played nearly 100 games?

[Southampton Gull]

Good question, I don't know the answer to that as far as Ellis is concerned but I'd say that Stevens fits the scenario you suggest. I like Ellis, like most I like his gung-ho style but I'm also able to see what a liability he can be as well. I'll just put my faith in Martin Ling to do the best with what he has at his disposal and at the moment he doesn't deem Ellis as good enough to displace Saah or Robertson.