Comparison's and kneejerk reactions

[Dave]

Recent results and the doom and gloom of the weekend got me thinking about the fateful 2006/2007 season, so i had look back over that season and came up with some comparisons and stat's, on the 23rd of Sept 06 , 10 games in to that season our team sat 7th in the league with 17 points, when the team went on an away trip to MK Dons a game which Torquay led i believe 2.0 before going on to lose 3.2 which was the catalyst for an 11 game winless run failing to score in 9 matchs.

On the 27th of November 2006 following a 5.2 defeat to Peterbrough Ian Atkins was sacked, the why's and wherefore's behind the scene's with Chris Knoberts is niether here nor there, Atkins was sacked, was it a kneejerk reaction? The club went through a further 2 managers and i believe 50 plus different players that season.

And thats my point to those who are asking whehter the board has the guts to sack Ling, and asking for wholesale changes to be made to the squad, had the club kept Atkins in 2006 who knows what would have happened, at the very least we would have had stabilty at the club and through the squad, rather than 50 different players being used under 3 different managers, and may well have never dropped into the conference at all, there may a warning from history there, that the club and us fans may want to heed before we go running off and sacking Ling.

I have said before and stand by it, if ever there was a case for a manager to be given time Ling at Torquay is it, the heart was ripped out of our side and Lingy had little money to re-build it with, and yes you could say why not have a squad of 15 and top it with loans bringing the quality you do need, well to me loans are just papering over the cracks, loans are not free, so as a club you are throwing good money over bad, for the services of a player you do not own and have no control over.

I said in the loans market thread, i would like to see a right and centre back come in, however Martin Ling has said he is going to stick with the squad as it is and the answe lie's within, well may it does, for me i would like to see him try Bodin as strike partner to Howe, and try Macklin on the wing, also Saah is playing with little or no confidence not helped by us fans, take him out of that situation and play Ellis, this may not work howveer might me worth a shout.

What ever has been said , whatever we may feel as fans, right now the key for me is, the management team and player need nothing more than our support and the support of the board, short term is going to be the only way out of this slump, sacking the manager and changing the playing staff could seriuosly back fire on the club.

[Colorado Gull]

I think that the idea of sacking Ling is ludricous, but the last few performances have been dreadful and something needs to change. I still believe (even Ling won't) that we should get a couple of players on loan to stregthen the squad. Ling needs to drop Saah in my opinion and bring in Ellis for a go, our defence is weak at the moment and a change of personel at the back is needed. These things need to happen in my opinion or this season will be a long and difficult one, with a posibility of a relegation battle.

[Enzo]

With respect, I disagree with the comparison that the opening post is based on - one cannot possibly compare that season with this one, due to the stability that we now have at board level (although far from perfect). Chris Roberts was so out of his depth, no manager could have kept us up that season - We had a good start, but probably similar to this season, the best we could possibly hope for that year was a rather dull season of consolidation, even before the Roberts revolution. My recollection maybe hazy, but Atkins did not leave as part of a knee jerk reaction - His removal as manager was part of a much wider plan. I think Atkins was actually offered some kind of role at the club, probably a mere token gesture, which he refused. Atkins knew the score completely, as did Mickey Evans. If ever you get the chance, listen to his post match interview after the peterborough game - in hindsight, he was spot on. The relegation writing was on the wall as soon as Mike Bateson was taken in by Roberts.

I know that this was not the point of the original post and apologise for changing direction slightly. For what it is worth I don't think we should be too hasty in changing managers - I doubt we could afford to anyway. This was always going to be a tough, tough season and I'd happily settle for a dull lower mid table finish.

[brucie]

If it was just a case of "needing our support" then there would not be a crisis. It doesn't change anything though - half our players are not up to standard.
Take Leadbitter. He is permanently injured and how many league games has he started in his career for other clubs. Big fat zilcho. is he the full back to come in and play thirty odd games now - No. Would he get in any other lleague 2 team - no.
And suggesting serial texter Macklin as the answer is just absurd. Lets face it he is a complete joke (or would be if we were not actually paying him money). Would he get in any other league 2 team? - no.
Would Halpin get in any other league 2 team - no
what about Saah? - no
Mcphee - no
Rice - No
Atieno - No
Oastler - No

This is the problem as I keep saying - we don't have enough players who can peform to an adequate standard. With these players there is absolutely no chance of us winning sufficient games to keep us in this league.

[Mav]

If it was just a case of "needing our support" then there would not be a crisis.

If the team was requiring our support, with you here i would have suggested that would be a huge crisis

[royalgull]

Daniel Leadbitter is what 19 years old and his 'previous clubs' were Newcastle United, it seems a bit harsh to have a pop at him for not starting for currently one of the best teams in England as a marker of whether he'd be good enough for Torquay and League 2. Unfortunate he's picked up injuries since he's been here but he played pretty much every game for Newcastle Reserves last season so it would seem it's been a bit of a freak injury start for him.

Needless to say I completely disagree with the next part, if you think clubs like Hereford, Macclesfield, Accrington etc are so awash with talent that some of our players wouldn't start for them that's your opinion. Fact is you've seen Atieno and Saah play 0 minutes of football also some of the players mentioned above are merely squad players for us. Oastler would easily get in any of the aforementioned sides.

Bare facts are some of our better or most influential players have left, the budget that was here before is gone so Ling has had to make a new side on the scraps given to him. On top of that our good side from last year just managed 7th in the end so it's not going to be easy for Ling and new side to get anywhere near that this year. We need to stay up and try to finish mid way, that's been the aim from day 1. Nothings changed, we are going to lose games. Games we won last year because our team is weaker than last year + it's an even younger squad with lots of players still 'learning their trade', they will make mistakes. It's why they play for us in League 2.

I've been dissapointed by certain individuals this season, Saah being a main one. Having heard the glowing references from the Cambridge fans, the fact the guy played just about every game for Orient when they won promotion from this league, and played in League 1, I was hoping for him to be a quick dominant centre half. On what I've seen he's been anything but that. He's been the only one though, every one else has pretty much played to expectation if you can realise where we are as a club and where these guys are as players. We've definitely got more than enough to be away from the bottom 2 but for us to consolidate a bit higher up we do need a couple of players down the middle of the side. Centre half and centre forward. If Ling could get those in we'll definitely be absolutely fine.

This season was a rebuild job everyone has said and agreed as much at the start and shock horror to finish mid-lower table you don't win every week.

[brucie]

As usual any half reasonable arguement is met with a reply from a stupid tosser such as yourself. i don't choose to drive 170 miles to home games anymore because it is not worth wasting money on. I was actually thinking of going to match next week but cannot be bothered.
We cannot buy a win because we don't have enough decent players. Thats the top and bottom of it.

[royalgull]

Thanks for the insult brucie. It's your choice not to go, if you don't feel it's a worthwhile use of your income that's fine, whose to judge you on that? What it does though is it negates any opinion you have on individuals on how they are playing. Reports on here or on the radio are just someones opinion, which as we all know changes from person to person.

we can not buy a win because we don't have decent players. Did you say that when Torquay won back to back away games at Bristol Rovers and Aldershot or when Macclesfield were beaten 3-0?

To be honest you said we were shit 3 years, 2 years and even a year ago when we finished 7th. So to be perfectly honest your style loses effect after a while. Just the same old shit on auto repeat every season once Torquay yes Torquay one of the smallest clubs in the league lose a few games.

When the going gets tough, brucie gets moaning.

[brucie]

Royalgull - I do agree with the majority of your post and I would be more than happy with a lower to mid table finish actually. My view is that we won't get it though for the reasons I have stated.
Leadbitter has no league experience whatsoever - surely though a team comprising mainly of professionals should not be losing 9-1 to a Cheltenham reserve side. In spite of what anyone else says this is a marker of the merits of some of our squad.
As you quite rightly say the team of the last couple of years was infinitely better than the one we have now. Here lies the problem though - the last time we were on relegation trouble our team wasn't actually that bad, Branston,Carayol.Nicholson,Benyon etc - we were easily able to raise our game.
Can anyone honestly see at the moment where the next win is coming from - Southend/Afc Wimbledon - cannot see it myself.
This issue for me is that if we do sink much lower we will be in the bottom two and we won't have the players to dig us out of the mire this team around.
Ling says that we have a middle third budget for this league. If this is correct then you do wonder if he has spent money wisely. The likes of Saah,Mcphee,Atienio. Money well spent?

[royalgull]

You see that's better brucie, we now have some similar thoughts and ground to work on here, now I can answer this post

That's your opinion which is fine, I actually think we'll be nearer the bottom than the top and as long as we don't finish in the bottom 2 I am happy this year, it wont' be pretty we might have a few frights down the line (wehn was the last time we finish 12th and had nothing to worry about all year in terms of up or down?!) but I suppose it's just a hope of we've still got enough in the likes of MAnsell, O Kane, Howe, Olejnik, Robertson, Nicholson and a few others that are ok for this league to be alright. Where I do actually agree with you brucie is we have a few too many players with ? next to their name. We don't know about Leadbitter, we don't know about Atieno, we don't know about Macklin, we don't know about McPhee and their abilities at this level so I'd say 13 games in it's still too early to judge some of these lads positively or negatively just yet. Its dangerous if they go the wrong way, what you are left with are squad members that don't cut the mustard and if you carry a small squad like we do it's a problem.

The main problem there though is we're forced into this situation due to the cut in budget, (Ling isn't going to take the job and say yeah we're broke the board are rubbish, they've just given him a job in the FL) the evidence in our budget is there from the signings made and also by little statements like 'we gave other clubs young players experience last year we're going to give our own the same this year' that's managers speak to appease people but it really means, we can't afford as many.

My main concern in what i've seen (not as much as some due to location constraints as well as I play football on saturdays) is the performance levels have been quite poor even in the game we won at Aldershot I thought we looked a pretty average side. But we won and like I said I've accepted we're a poorer side this season. As good as I thought we were last season, we finished 7th not 1st so it wasn't going to take a lot for us to be poorer in terms of quality and results this year.

I'd just love us to get another couple of players or one or two with ? to really stand up. So Ellis getting a chance, take it this time and put yourself as the first name on the sheet, Atieno to show his early season form instead of this lazy waster he's been recently. Will it happen only time will tell, what I'd love to see is a couple of proven League 2 players to join this squad and just give it a boost or freshness.

[Southampton Gull]

Quality assessment, Ian and that's also how I see things. I think our early season form raised expectations but I always expected us to tail off a bit and go through a spell where we'd struggle, I expected others to understand that too but it seems that a few are only really happy when we're fighting for a promotion or play-off berth which just isn't going to happen. The fact that the grandstand is out of action has forced some regulars to decide not to bother relocating to other parts of the ground and also means that we can't take advantage of the fact that we have some games this season that would bring in extra revenue through the turnstiles and enable us to add to our playing budget. I'm just relieved that we're able to go through a season like this as a League team and not a Conference team and I think some are forgetting just how lucky we are to be able to have a season of consolidation to get the infrastructure at the club put on a more sound footing. Success on the pitch wasn't sustainable when all other things are taken into account and I'll settle for 3rd from bottom and a new grandstand ready for next season.

[royalgull]

That's obviously a major factor in Ling's budget being what it is. The club is spending money on the training facilities as well as this new stand. Two major factors in expenditure that haven't previously been an issue for previous managers, ever really.

Like you correctly say some regulars wouldn't want to relocate, as trivial as that sounds I bet it's true. I've sat behind the goal a few times and as ever behind the goal the view is infinitely worse than along the side of the pitch and also it's always bloomin freezing in that stand! For some it may well be the only option as standing for 90mins isn't possible for everybody. So the thought of parting their usual season ticket cash for a worse view seat in a freezing stand with a poorer quality of product on the field isn't going to entice everyone! End of the day football is an expensive entertainment business and like brucie says, he doesn't want to pay the costs, there will be others. Ultimately though it ends up hurting the club because that lost revenue at our level is massive. Leads to smaller budget- worse players - worse team. It's a tough one.

This season was never going to be like last, the football was going to be worse, the results were definitely going to be worse as a whole but we do need to improve a bit. We aren't as desperately shite as brucie says but we aren't particularly good either. Certainly a lower end League 2 side this year on the evidence shown. It could change, some new players might change it like Bucks did when we first went up. Gave the original squad a chance then went and changed it at Xmas time, we might see something similar. It's a tough one for the board as well, on limited funds juggling the long term future of the club with the new facilities and it has to be a priority but ultimately the short term is the current squad and Ling needs to be able to make sure the squad is good enough to get what they want this year. Where I and I think everyone would agree, relegation would be a catastrophy this season. I am still convinced even if we signed no one else this season we are better than 4 or 5 other teams in this league.

[brucie]

Royalgull - apologies the insult was not aimed at you, but the moron who posted above your message. I didn't see your mesage before submitting mine - thats why I answered your post with my second one.

[brucie]

Just to reply to your other post - no obviously I can't see for myself because i havn't been going. Obviously it was a great win at Bristol Rovers but it is surely possible to form an opinion from listening to commentary of the match. For example I listened to the Aldershot game and it was clear that we fluked three points there. It sounded as though we we absolutely mullered.

[royalgull]

Royalgull - apologies the insult was not aimed at you, but the moron who posted above your message. I didn't see your mesage before submitting mine - thats why I answered your post with my second one.

Apology accepted.