Port Vale v Torquay United - 1/9/12

[lucy6lucy]

Saw us break the 1000 minute barrier without conceding a goal at Vale a couple of years ago, was a jolly good day. Using the Sky Sports video thing, I watched their performances so far this year.
They got done by an OG and a 94th minute breakaway at Accrington. Against Barnet, they played the worst team in the top 12 divisions. The Bees didn't have a single shot on or off target that day. That said, Vale only managed two shots on target (the second goal was a penalty, which doesn't count) which means that every single time they hit the target, they scored, that's unlikely to happen again. Given their total domination of the match, that must be a worrying statistic for the Vale faithful.

That said, their front two of Pope and Dodds do look pretty good together. They're no Bodin and Howe, but they look to be pretty good. Dodds will shoot on sight, back to goal, on the half turn volley, any time, any place. We'll need a decent replacement for Downer to get tight to him and win the ball before he has a chance to get his shot off.

Bloody horrible, oppressive away end, with their dark seats and low ceiling. They are the most effective exponents of the 'multi-ball' system that I have seen outside of the top divisions, so we'll have to keep on our toes any time the ball goes out of play.
Despite not really liking their away end, the ground itself is alright, and their fans are perfectly decent people. I seem to remember it being a bit expensive though, but that might not be right.

Anyway, looking forward to this one, since they have a good surface up their, and it should rather suit our game. They look pretty direct, not so much long ball, but like to get forward quickly, a bit like the anti-Fleetwood.

This'll be a tough game, but certainly no more difficult than Cheltenham,and it's a game from which a point would not make me happy, but three would make me delighted (if only there were a two point option!)

Matt.

With regard to breaking the 1000 minute barrier for conceding a goal, I was under the impression when vale scored to make it 2-1 Torquay(it stayed that) shortly before half time we where on 992 minutes? :aww:

[ferrarilover]

Nope, the absolute minimum estimate is 998, I prefer the 1000 minute calculation.

Matt.

[Plymouth Gull]

It was definitely 998.

[lucy6lucy]

It was definitely 998.

On that basis 992 or 998 mins, if we had Alex Ferguson as our manager and 'fergie time' we would have made it 2000 mins

[Gullscorer]

Who was our manager at the time..?

[royalgull]

Looking forward to Ling carrying on his trust in the young players on Saturday where I reckon we might see a 2nd debut in a week. MacKenzie has to be the stand out candidate as we speak to replace Downes. MacKenzie and Thompson starting in the same team within the first 6 games of the season? would have given you good odds on that scenario. But why not? This is the time to do it where nothing is won or lost, we need to find out about these lads so lets use them then make a decision regarding a loan. Loans should (although they arne't used that way) be a last resort for clubs and the players you have on your books should be used first. The loan system is abused to be honest and you go up against sides with 4 or 5 loanees in their distorting the quality of that side. Remember HEreford going up with 7 loanees on their books? relegated the next year when they all went back to their clubs it's a mockery.

Thompson by all accounts stood out last week so could already be a very viable option for the season meaning we don't need to loan a Jake Thomson or Lloyd Macklin like we've done in previous years and can use one of our own and MacKenzie may well do the same thing meaning we don't loan a Angus MacDonald or the lad from Colchester, can't even remember his name!

Good to see isn't it? I'd rather we gave these lads and the likes of Yeoman a bit more opportunity than loan players.

[Richinns]

Looking forward to Ling carrying on his trust in the young players on Saturday where I reckon we might see a 2nd debut in a week. MacKenzie has to be the stand out candidate as we speak to replace Downes. MacKenzie and Thompson starting in the same team within the first 6 games of the season? would have given you good odds on that scenario. But why not? This is the time to do it where nothing is won or lost, we need to find out about these lads so lets use them then make a decision regarding a loan. Loans should (although they arne't used that way) be a last resort for clubs and the players you have on your books should be used first. The loan system is abused to be honest and you go up against sides with 4 or 5 loanees in their distorting the quality of that side. Remember HEreford going up with 7 loanees on their books? relegated the next year when they all went back to their clubs it's a mockery.

Thompson by all accounts stood out last week so could already be a very viable option for the season meaning we don't need to loan a Jake Thomson or Lloyd Macklin like we've done in previous years and can use one of our own and MacKenzie may well do the same thing meaning we don't loan a Angus MacDonald or the lad from Colchester, can't even remember his name!

Good to see isn't it? I'd rather we gave these lads and the likes of Yeoman a bit more opportunity than loan players.

I think Ling has as much said he will bring someone in royal. As much as MacKenzie is rated at the club it is a totally different proposition throwing a centre back into the fold than it is a winger. Ling has stated this publically. Also - this is an away game so the pressure will be higher. He already wanted to add another CB to the squad before now so suspect one will be in place by Saturday (whether it be a loan or a permanent deal).

[CP Gull]

Royal, I take your point and given the impact that Thompson made on Saturday can understand why you think young McKenzie might also be given his chance but I can't see it happening this weekend.

There is a big difference between giving a young winger his first start in front of a supportive home crowd on a ground he is at home with and a young centre back being thrown in at the deep end in front of 5000 hostile fans at the likes of Port Vale. Personally I would imagine that Lingy is trying his hardest to bring someone in but if he fails in that then I reckon we are more likely to see Oastler at Centre Back and Cruise at Right Back than the youngster being given his chance. You have to ask yourself why Lingy didn't thrown McKenzie on in the last 20 minutes when we were 4-1 up at home against Rochdale, instead he preferred to bring Cruise on and switch Oastler inside and for that reason I think he will go down that route if we don't succeed in bringing anyone in.

As for McKenzie I expect him to be given his chance this season and from what I've seen of him I think he's a real prospect but surely it's far more likely that he will be given his chance in some meaningless JPT game where crucial League points aren't at stake?

As for the "abuse" of the loan system, I agree with you that I think it needs changing as some clubs use it far too much and the example you gave of Hereford getting promoted off the back of bringing in several loan players but immediately struggling to survive in a higher division is a good example but there are others ... in particular I'm thinking of the likes of Yeovil Town who seemed to have "worked the system" very very well over several seasons and nearly always seem to have half their team packed with loanees from a much higher level.... it has certainly worked well for them!

[bengull]

I would go with Kirtys. Downsey will come straight back into the side no matter how well anyone performs against Vale and, as mentioned previously, it's a tough ask to find a defender to come in for a one-off match and then sit on the bench for the rest of the spell. From what I have seen of Kirtys, I think he would step up to the plate well, especially when surrounded by experienced pro's like Nico, Saah and Easton.

It's early enough in the season not to have a lasting effect on our campaign, it would offer an excellent learning curve to his progression, and like Niall Thompson we may discover we have a real gem on our books. Sometimes the best thing you can do is let them sink or swim. Was having kittens at the thought of Angus Macdonald starting gainst Crawley and he came on and performed admirably, what's he point of giving them a first team squad number if you on trust them to play in the first team. It's never stopped a club like Crewe from continually producing money-earning talent.

Looking forward to this game, not the longest trip of the season by any means, just hope it's warmer than last year. Hope Sir Martin goes with Niall again because on last week's showing few teams will be able to cope with the triumvirate of Howe, Bodin and he upfront. I am not sure how much Cruise contributed to our 0-0 against Fleetwood, but Saturday will be a different proposition and I am yet to be convinced by him. Hope Danny is fit for the bench too.

[Richinns]

I would go with Kirtys. Downsey will come straight back into the side no matter how well anyone performs against Vale and, as mentioned previously, it's a tough ask to find a defender to come in for a one-off match and then sit on the bench for the rest of the spell. From what I have seen of Kirtys, I think he would step up to the plate well, especially when surrounded by experienced pro's like Nico, Saah and Easton.

It's early enough in the season not to have a lasting effect on our campaign, it would offer an excellent learning curve to his progression, and like Niall Thompson we may discover we have a real gem on our books. Sometimes the best thing you can do is let them sink or swim. Was having kittens at the thought of Angus Macdonald starting gainst Crawley and he came on and performed admirably, what's he point of giving them a first team squad number if you on trust them to play in the first team. It's never stopped a club like Crewe from continually producing money-earning talent.

Looking forward to this game, not the longest trip of the season by any means, just hope it's warmer than last year. Hope Sir Martin goes with Niall again because on last week's showing few teams will be able to cope with the triumvirate of Howe, Bodin and he upfront. I am not sure how much Cruise contributed to our 0-0 against Fleetwood, but Saturday will be a different proposition and I am yet to be convinced by him. Hope Danny is fit for the bench too.

Think they already know Mackenzie has a big future but the sink or swim philosophy is probably not wise for a defender. I think the saying "if you are good enough you are old enough" applies far less to defenders and definitely Centre Halfs. How often do you see a young CB being thrown in for England or for Premier League teams? Far less than a young winger/midfielder or striker - that is for sure.

Not playing Mackenzie could possibly be the best way of protecting his development at this stage.

[royalgull]

For 1 game? Lets give MAckenzie a go rather than a loan who then sits on the bench when Downes is back a week Saturday.

Accept the point he's young it's a different atmosphere to playing at home but at some point we need to give him a go. Ideally JPT and the odd 20mins here and there but for a one off game I'd be happy to chuck him in and have a look at him in a proper game.

If it was 5 games to go in the season and we're going for something I'd be less happy to do it, 3 games in? Lets do it.

[bengull]

Tony Adams, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Chris Smalling, Bobby Moore, Paolo Maldini off the top of my head. Its for one game, not 10 games or a season. I would much rather put my faith in someone who has been brought up learning the art of central defence, doing the things that central defenders do day in, day out in training than a full back filling in an alien position. It would be just as much sink or swim and as much of a risk to put Oastler, Cruise or a loanee completely unconnected and unfamiliar with TUFC in there in my opinion.

[Plymouth Gull]

As I said in another thread, I expected him to come on after Downes' red the other day. It was 20 minutes where we were comfortably ahead. I imagine a CB wouldn't have rocked the boat as much as what actually happened, but had he have made an introduction, and did alright, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As it is, it's a tough decision. Personally though, I'd give the lad a chance. Whats the point of him being around the first team squad otherwise.

[Chris B]

This problem has largely been caused by Ling's re-evaluation on Tom Cruise. Having stated on Cruise's arrival his ability to play at centre-back was one of the reasons he'd been brought in to replace Rowe-Turner, Ling's now decided/realised he can't.

On the 20min showing on Saturday, Cruise can't play at RB, either, nor can Oastler play at CB. Despite suggestions we're working to bring someone in before Saturday, I reckon Ling will stick to his mistrust of loan signings. If that's the case, I, too, would much rather see MacKenzie start than two players play out of position.

[Richinns]

I find it bizarre that people think this game is any less important than the 45 others? Just because it is 4th game in does not in mean there are any less points on offer than other league games.

Regardless of the decision - it is great that we are having this conversation as it shows that this is the first time we a really seeing anybody come through the youth system. Halpin threatened it but has yet to show it and Yeoman has always been on the fringes.
Is it the right time for Mackenzie? - Ling will know better than us so I trust his judgement.