Attitudes to the new reality.........

[AustrianAndyGull]

Yes it can be dull at times, but would we rather get smashed 6-2 because we can't defend to save our lives, or lose 1-0/draw 0-0, because we can't attack?
This system was a proven success last year, we lost key personnel and the replacements haven't quite met the standard just yet. Looking at the bigger picture, we're in a better position than we ever have been in my time supporting them, we've had 3/4 years of solid improvement, so I can't say I'm too surprised to hit a lull. Unfortunately I still get the impression the board don't really want a promotion though.

I see what you are saying Nick but we HAVE players who can attack just that we don't move the ball quick enough to them nor do we get people in support quick enough. It's all very laboured. We know what he have with Howe, real quality. Jarvis is pretty dull but he CAN finish if afforded the opportunities therefore playing him as a lone striker given we throw men forward like Yorkshiremen spend money is horrendously bad management and doesn't play to Jarvis's abilities as a poacher. Thompson is electric, raw and young but electric all the same and he should be used accordingly, Bodin WHEN and IF he comes good can be a real handful to defend against and Stevens can be effective if our tempo is right and he is given the ball a lot. We also have Yeoman who has potential and should be given more opportunities. There is no reason why we shouldn't be scoring plenty of goals with the handful of players i have just mentioned so the problem lies with team tactics and an ultra-defensive approach. The point you make Nick that you would rather us not have an attack but draw 0-0 instead of lose 6-2 and defend like fairies is your personal opinion and i respect that however in reality we DO HAVE and excellent defence anyway so we should harness our attacking threat WHICH WE DO HAVE and be positive from the off and if the we concede there is a good chance we may have scored ourselves once or twice. All we are doing now is heaping immense pressure on our defence every game, especially away and we have to give them immeasurable credit for keeping teams at bay when we're being slaughtered all the time. I feel sorry for the because one or two bad mistakes and it could lead to a goal wheras Bodin and co can miss hatfuls of chances and whilst people are slating the defence for errors they are patting the attackers on the head saying it's just because they are short on confidence! It's farcical really and maybe if Ling had placed more emphasis on attack and more faith in the strikers they wouldn't be so scared or desperate to shoot as quick as they can on the rare occasions they get a decent chance. Ling is effectively creating a division between defence and attack and i'd go so far as to say it's a gaping chasm on a cheddar gorge scale which is an alarming problem. For every time the defence work their balls of for 90 mins after being pummelled for the entire game and manage to keep a clean sheet and the offensive side of the team create nothing to help relieve the pressure, a seed of doubt and thoughts of bewilderment must enter their heads like it does the fans. Nico has had some shocking games this season but he hasn't been allowed to get forward. As i say i feel for the defence because they are being put on uneccesarily due to the stubborness or basic cluelessness of Martin Ling. I mean he says on the BBC website that"we were on the back foot for most of the game" and "we didn't create much at all". No shit Martin, aren't those the exact same words you said after Rotherham, Wycombe, Bristol Rovers, Chesterfield too? You need to sort it out Martin because when i go to York i expect a performance and if i get the same old cack and the same old excuses post match then i can't go anymore and watch the nightmare that is a Torquay United away day. WE DON'T NEED STRIKERS - WE HAVE THEM. SO START F*CKING USING THEM!!!!!!

[Plymouth Gull]

I'm more of a threat upfront than Jarvis (and I'm sh*t). Howe is the only potent striker in our club right now so I'd say Ling has realised the rest aren't up to scratch, however we probably cant afford to pay them off, or sell them because they aren't league standard, and in turn we can't get anyone in.

[AustrianAndyGull]

If that is your genuine view on our strike force Nick then perhaps you may want to lay some of the blame at Martin's door for not addressing this problem. Why not give Yeoman some game time, if not now then we may as well let him go as there'll never be a better opportunity. I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion but if you are right then it's bad management yes? Lingy brought in Jarvis knowing that his style of play wouldn't suit him and maybe he also took a risk on Bodin thinking he could solve all his attacking issues, link defence and attack and bob's your uncle. Again, naive and bad management. If this is the case then his plan A blatantly hasn't worked and we are again struggling to score goals.

[hector]

I could understand some of the negative posting if we were 18th rather than 8th or 1 point adrift of safety and not the play offs. People need to get a sense of reality. To claim the signing of Bodin was bad management is utter nonsense. There is not one of us who was not pleased that the club were seeking to sign Bodin. The lad is only about 20 and yet because he is not scoring in every game, the idiots among the TUFC crowd - and sadly there is a substantial amount of idiots and thickos that follow torquay - are getting on his back. This nonsense about waning entertaining football away from home is so niave and idealistic. You work to your strengths and when you are hard to beat and not playing bull in the china shop football with a porous defence, you are far more likely to pick up the points than going hell for leather. It worked last season and on the whole it is working this season having lost less games than we haven't lost away from home. Look at the league table. Of all the clubs we have played above us, we have not lost one game. It is frustrating that our defeats came against weaker teams but after losing key players like Olejnick, Robertson, Ellis and O'Kane in the last year, to be challenging for promotion again is a decent outcome. Those slating Ling and the players really need a reality check.

[LukeGull]

It goes without saying that, I'm happy with our position in the league table and on the whole I'm happy with our home performances. Unfortunately I don't really have the opportunity to go to most of the away games and also from the way we are playing I'm really not that inclined to. This is what I see as part of the problem. Why would you go to a game in which it is almost always predetermined that we are going to be on the back foot all game? I'm a season ticket holder and thoroughly enjoy watching the home games, but I can see why attendances are dropping. We are beginning to complain about the declining attendances, but what do we really expect? We are charging £17 a match, not the highest in the league, but still a rather large amount. Yes we get the occasional electric, spine-chilling performance, but this is only occasionally. The reality is, that if we don't start to show a bit more impetus in attack and a bit more imagination and desire, it doesn't matter if it goes wrong, then the attendances are going to keep dropping. Blame the lack of goals on a lack of goalscorers, blame the lack of goalscorers on a lack of money, blame the lack of money on the attendances/cup runs, blame the attendances/cup runs on lack of goals/style of football. It's a vicious circle. Why not try and be more ambitious in attack, whether it works or not, it would likely attract more people to matches, rather than sending them away. This would lead to the chance of more money/more players. Yes I'm looking at this in very simplistic terms, but other than losing the occasional match which at the moment we may draw, why not try and play more attacking football. People will probably say, it's too easy to just say be more attacking. In the same way it's too easy to stick all your players behind the ball and hoof it long all game, instead of pushing players a bit further up the pitch.

[Dave]

Yes it can be dull at times, but would we rather get smashed 6-2 because we can't defend to save our lives, or lose 1-0/draw 0-0, because we can't attack?

This system was a proven success last year, we lost key personnel and the replacements haven't quite met the standard just yet. Looking at the bigger picture, we're in a better position than we ever have been in my time supporting them, we've had 3/4 years of solid improvement, so I can't say I'm too surprised to hit a lull. Unfortunately I still get the impression the board don't really want a promotion though.

Sorry Nick can't agree with you there, one look at the motm votes tells me that in the opinion of most the replacements are doing just fine, with Aaron Downes regularly coming out as motm in many votes, and Nathan Craig and Pokey often in the top 5 of many aswell.

Mean this as a general point, the system that was a success last year still could be a success this year, the point missed is look where our injuries are Morris,Macklin and Stevens there are all attack minded players, there clearly is money in the kitty for loan signings and our squad needs some help.

Yet as said the H/E reports we are looking at a defender, if this is true why for pity sake, why do we need a defender who at best will play one game when Downes is suspended when he gets his fifth yellow, and then sit on the bench, its up top we need some help, as said three out injured, Bodin miss firing, Tompson sadly a bit to raw, and Jarvis what was the point , Rene can't do it alone.

[Gullscorer]

Attack is the best form of defence.

If you don't attack you don't score goals. If you don't score goals you don't win. If you don't win you don't accumulate those extra points. If you don't accumulate those extra points you're less likely to improve your goal difference. If you don't improve your goal difference you're going to have to defend more in order to win what points you can so that you won't have to rely on goal difference at the end of the season.

Attack is the best form of defence..

Example: 0-0, 0-1, 1-1, 1-0, 0-1, 0-0 = W1 D3 L2 = 6 points...... goals for 2, against 3 = g.d. -1

Example: 1-0, 2-2, 2-3, 3-2, 2-4, 3-1 = W3 D1 L2 = 10 points... goals for 13, against 12 = g.d. +1

Could be the difference between failure and success, between promotion and also rans, between 2000 attendances and 4000 attendances, between survival and liquidation..

[hector]

The amount of goals we have scored at home is the 3rd highest in the league. It is simply nonsense to suggest people are staying way because of a lack of goals.

[LukeGull]

Ok, yes the amount of goals scored at home may be looking positive, but the same can not always be said about the performances. We have had some brilliant games, but then we have also had the not so brilliant matches. When people boo the team of the pitch (I would never boo my team, it's a ridiculous things to do), that's when you start to feel the pressure. We've proven that we are a very good attacking side, if you look at the goals scored and especially the performances against Gillingham, Acrington, Aldershot, Rochdale. Yet why even at home do we get forced to defend for our lives a lot more than you would expect. If we didn't have such a good defence, I could see this being a lot more apparent. I think that's what people are finding frustrating, like Andy says, why deploy negative tactics when we have proven that we can play very good attacking football if we actually get men forward. This is from what I've heard, seen and listened to ten times worse in the away matches and it is a very sad thing if supporters of a club only feel as if they should go and watch the home matches. It's obvious that we are going to concede less goals deploying negative tactics and against the
better teams in the league, yes it seems a perfectly reasonable option. If we consider ourselves as a solid mid table club, which I think is fair, would we not then expect to play a more attacking style of football than half the league lower than us and be a bit more cautious against the half above us? This has clearly not been the case as our results and style of play has gone. We ended Gillingham's run, yes with the aid of two lucky goals but with a very good attacking performance. Yet why then do we decide to play so defensively and put most of our team behind the ball against the teams that we think are weaker in defence?

It is the beautiful nature of football, that wonderful moment when the referee blows full time after your team has been soaking up relentless pressure for the last 10 minutes while being 1-0 up. Unfortunately this isn't the case if you're doing it week in week out, or if you're doing it from the word go.

I mean I have only been supporting Torquay for about 5 years, but in that time we've seen what I consider to be two completely different styles of play. That of Lingy and that of Buckle. It has to be said that we are obviously in a lot better state now under Lingy on and off the pitch and that is a great sign that in these troubled times we are doing very well. On the pitch we are also picking up more points and on the whole are doing very well. Yet I can't help but think about the matches under Buckle. Yes we had some absolute stinkers, yes we often conceded late goals, but the open attacking style of play was certainly interesting (one way of putting it) to watch. I always felt that we could go out and score a lot of goals, yes possibly concede more, but hey the idea of football is to outscore the opposition. These days I know we are still a very good side, but I don't feel as if we are going to get many of those exhilarating, morale boosting, goal difference improving 3 or 4-0.

It is obvious that we (myself included) are still of the impression that we can do this. Looking at the Barnet thread, many of us were looking forward to the match, often putting down us scoring at least 3 goals. Yes on the day we appear to have played quite well, but from what I've seen we didn't play anywhere near as well as we have in past matches. They ended up unfortunately snatching the winner with what I think was with one of only four shots. Echoes of us last season? Then on the weekend against Oxford, it was the other way round. Despite their defensive problems, we barely managed to cause them any problems, but almost snatched a late winner with Thompson. To snatch and grab so many games as we did last season was nothing short of a miracle, but I think we all knew it wouldn't continue and especially without Rene. That being said though it is not like we don't still have a group of great attacking players, it's just a shame they are always inside our own half.

Stating the obvious but drawing three games is the same as winning one and losing two. This is why I think it doesn't pay to be so defensive all the time. For the draws you get by playing defensively, you are almost as likely to pick up a win by putting that little bit more impetus in attack.

I'm obviously thrilled by our league position, but I would just like to see us push a few players further up the pitch and see what happens. Who knows maybe we might just score

[Plymouth Gull]

@Andy: Yes that is how I see it. I'm confident Bodin will come good. Jarvis is not league standard. Yeoman has had some game time recently, had 20 minutes against Harrogate and another 20 at Oxford. He didn't change much really but I won't judge on those two cameos, just yet anyway. Bad management, or doing the best in a bad situation? We don't know the ins and outs, I'm sure Lingy would have loved to have brought in somebody a bit better than Jarvis, but as I've said, perhaps finances didn't allow it. He isn't going to come out after signing RJ saying 'oh I wanted to sign somebody better but we couldn't afford it so you'll have to do' is he? I don't think it was a risk on Bodin, afterall we'd seen what he could do for 6 months before we did sign him. However that 6 months where he barely played at Swindon/Crewe seem to have affected his development, so it's no doubt going to take time for him to rediscover himself.

@Dave: I'm sure you'll agree that Downes has been an excellent find to replace Ellis, infact, I'm sure most will agree with that sentiment. However, I think we've now realised how fortunate we were to have Bobby last year. He won us so many points on the road, with all those clean sheets - something Pokey hasn't really been able to do as yet. He doesn't look the same player he was in his previous loan spells, but again having been a reserve for nigh on 3 years is bound to take it's toll. Craig is looking a fantastic prospect but he isn't at the level EoK was in terms of attacking influence last season. Obviously it would have been daft to expect him to be. So in that respect, only Downes has been a good replacement for Ellis for our starting XI. I'm confident that given more time Poke and Craig will too, but they aren't at the level of Bobby and EoK last season.

[Dave]

The amount of goals we have scored at home is the 3rd highest in the league. It is simply nonsense to suggest people are staying way because of a lack of goals.

That is a stat hard to argue with, and I have put a positive slant on the fact that only three teams in the division have scored more at home than us, however it could be looked at as a glass half full , half empty situation, many can a will point towards the fact that 11 of those goals came in just 3 home matchs, and we have only scored 6 goals in the other 5 home matchs.

As Lukegull has alluded to for every Rochdale, Aldershot and Accrinton performance there has been on the flip side a Plymouth, Burton and Harrogate performance, didn't include Morecambe home because that game was won, however its fair to say the group I stand with spent the game thanking our lucky stars that Ellison and brodie were not on the pitch.

[royalgull]

I'm neither overly positive or overly negative generally, I'm a realist and I call things how I see them at that particular time.

Admittedly I've seen nothing like the amount of games as most on here but from the reports I've read, both official ones and numerous fan accounts saying the same sort of things coupled with the game I saw Saturday I can understand why some would be frustrated with current events when you consider the time but more importantly the money spent to support the team.

With football you pays your money you takes your choice, I understand that. It's pointless comparing it to similar activities like going to the cinema/theatre because you can preview what you're going to see to check if it's going to be any good. you can get a rough idea with football going by previous performances but ultimately with sport it's on the day and anything can happen. It's why we go, coupled with a mad obsession over whichever club you happen to support. We've all picked the short straw! lol

I saw more games under Buckle than I have under Ling, but I saw a reasonable amount last year. I think we were a more attacking more watchable side under buckle than we are under Ling as a general point. Ling has a very defensively minded setup where at our best we have 1 or 2 guys that can win a game for us but we are built on making sure the opposition don't score. Buckle's sides were definitely let off the leash a lot more. I enjoyed it more watching those sides if I'm 100% honest and it's why I'm probably making less of an effort to go so much now. Thinking back to last season I thought we played well 2nd half at Argyle, we battered Accrington at home without much luck/skill in front of goal but other than that it was pretty average/tedious stuff where we pinched a number of games 1-0. Aldershot, Barnet, Cheltenham immediately spring to mind.

Ling's way is fine while you're winning, people forgive performance for points. To a lesser extent people will forgive points for good performances, because eventually that will turn around. It's when you don't play well and don't win that murmurs of discontent will spread. We are coming towards this point at the moment. Despite our league position which to be honest for us is excellent, there is a clear massive lack of footballing talent in that dressing room. You can look at that 2 ways, 1. Ling is getting the maximum of what he's got - which would be a fair comment or 2. What Ling has had budget wise he's spent it pretty poorly. Again I'm somewhere in the middle of this.

I put on another thread, I hate the loan system I really do. I think it's a joke and teams abuse it to make a side they can't afford to actually create but do it for short term gain. I think Ling is to be commended for only using it for emergencies or signing players on loan that we could actually afford to sign at the end of their contracts. However I can understand fans frustrations at not using it when 'everyone else does' especially when it's our only realistic avenue of improving what we've got and we do need to improve.

Ling's not had an easy deal and the point fo we get poor crowds where's the money coming from is a valid one. Olejnik, O'Kane and Ellis must have been high on our earners list, coupled with over £550,000 of transfer fees in there must be a bit of shrapnel hanging around the club. I would also hope our club budgets itself accordingly for a club that gets 2500 per week so we aren't at a knife edge with our finances. The main issue with this is we don't know for certain what the clubs finances are like at this level. We are continually told our budget is 'competitive' and our expenses via wages must be less than last year, with the calibre of players we've signed and sold. There is no way Easton is on O'Kane's money, nor Poke on Olejniks.

My issue with the whole situation is we were weak going forward last year as a group. It was compensated by Mansell having the season of his life and getting 11/12 goals. That is about his entire career's worth combined in one year. It was a freak to tell the truth, mixed in with having for my money one of the best players in the division in O'Kane who guarantees goals each year, Stevens like Mansell had an extraordinary year + Howe we had a few that could win us the game. Mansell was never going to do the same again, it just wasn't going to happen, we lost O'Kane and replaced him with a player in Bodin who is nothing like him, both in the position played and overall quality and also Easton who just doesn't really bring anything to the party. I watched the game Saturday and I honestly couldn't tell you what I think he's good at. Atieno got stick last season but it's got to the point where I think we'd be a better side/squad if we had Tai here still!! He'd have been a better bet on Saturday playing up front than Jarvis who like Easton brings nothign to the party. At least with Tai he had a goal in him sometimes and was so bloody unpredictable that occasionally he'd just work.

I was chatting to a bloke in the pub beforehand on Saturday, tld him we won't score unless we get a penalty or a header from a set piece. I was bang on, we had a set piece header ruled out, other than that we did nothing. It's not for the want of trying or lack of effort, we just seriously lack any quality in the area of the pitch that matters. Especially with Howe and to a lesser extent Stevens missing. Having seen the game Saturday I am not surprised we lost to Harrogate. Get the first goal against us and we're done for. If Oxford had scored Saturday we would have absolutely lost that game, there would have been no way that side could have got back into that.

This is where I think Ling has some accountability, we were mediocre going forward last season, we've done nothing to make that better. in fact we're worse, i ddin't see signing Jarvis as a good move as he did nothing in the loan spell to suggest he's going to make a real difference. We let Tai go for him, again personally I think Tai offers more as a lone striker (which Ling only plays), we lost our best creative midfielder and replaced him with a 33 year old free agent who doesn't create anything. His only real positive signing was Bodin who so far has flopped like Pele's chopper.

I still support Ling unconditionally, I just think like many managers do he's made mistakes and just cos Buckle shat on us (and he did royally) I'm not going to say he's St Martin and oh so brilliant just to spite Buckle or anyone else. Will call it as I see it and for me we are a much worse side now than we were two years ago, when we'd turn up at Oxford/Wycome/Shrewsbury wherever and pass the ball, create chances and have 4 or 5 players instead of 1 or 2 who could win us a game.

it's amazing we are where we are in the league at the moment, probably now is the time to say OK we've given everyone a go to prove they can contribute and make decisions on one or two that probably can't quite do it and try to improve that. Now is the time for us to bring in 2 loan players in forward positions to give us a plan B. so we can play 2 up front or even actually replace Rene and not conceed the game by doing so. I think what concerns me more is the fact Ling never talks about this, in fact the article i read last year said about getting a defender in. Magic, we don't need one to just sit on the bench again! McKenzie can fill in for the odd game and if anything happens longer term then bring one in. The forward thinking players needs improvement now. Lathrope,Mansell, Easton - that trio are all defensive first minded players. None unlock doors or create goals. Craig does slightly but maybe he was out of position Saturday but his only threat was via dead balls. Realistically we had TWO players in the first XI whose main thought is forwards. Jarvis and Bodin and that isn't good enough.

[Dave]

Nickgull don't generaly dissagree with your sentiment, however I think second half of last season E-O-K was in terms of form more out than in, I really only see the major difference as Bobby.O you can't put a price on the number of almost certain goals he kept out.

I think its fair to say that our club is becoming to a point a victim of its own succsess, there is no doubt over the last 5 seasons we as a club have done fantasticly well and expectation levels have risen, some do put forward low gates and ask what do you want the club to do, I fully understand that, we will allways have to sell our best players to balance the books, and our club is doing well compared to Plymouth, oxford and Rovers who all have ave gates some way higher than ours, but then again if you look at the ave gates for this season table below you will see Rochdale higher than us in the league with an Ave gate over 300 less, and Cheltenham and Burton whos ave gates are about the same also above us the league.

Thats my only real gripe performance levels are not where they should be, yes we have injuries however we have had right the way through the season so far, if our squad was playing at the level I think they are capable of but not getting results I would not be to concerned, because you would know a good run was just around the corner, however we are not and I wonder what sort of results we are going to get over the next few weeks, good ones I hope.

Bradford City 9,977
Rotherham United 7,985
Plymouth Argyle 6,320
Oxford United 6,091
Bristol Rovers 5,728
Gillingham 5,339
Chesterfield 5,185
Port Vale 5,157
Southend United 4,868
Northampton Town 4,316
York City 4,156
Exeter City 3,945
Wycombe Wanderers 3,934
AFC Wimbledon 3,780
Fleetwood Town 3,189
Cheltenham Town 2,877
Torquay United 2,769
Burton Albion 2,704
Rochdale 2,355
Barnet 2,253
Aldershot Town 1,990
Morecambe 1,976
Accrington Stanley 1,875
Dagenham & Redbridge 1,724

[AustrianAndyGull]

I'm neither overly positive or overly negative generally, I'm a realist and I call things how I see them at that particular time.

Admittedly I've seen nothing like the amount of games as most on here but from the reports I've read, both official ones and numerous fan accounts saying the same sort of things coupled with the game I saw Saturday I can understand why some would be frustrated with current events when you consider the time but more importantly the money spent to support the team.

With football you pays your money you takes your choice, I understand that. It's pointless comparing it to similar activities like going to the cinema/theatre because you can preview what you're going to see to check if it's going to be any good. you can get a rough idea with football going by previous performances but ultimately with sport it's on the day and anything can happen. It's why we go, coupled with a mad obsession over whichever club you happen to support. We've all picked the short straw! lol

I saw more games under Buckle than I have under Ling, but I saw a reasonable amount last year. I think we were a more attacking more watchable side under buckle than we are under Ling as a general point. Ling has a very defensively minded setup where at our best we have 1 or 2 guys that can win a game for us but we are built on making sure the opposition don't score. Buckle's sides were definitely let off the leash a lot more. I enjoyed it more watching those sides if I'm 100% honest and it's why I'm probably making less of an effort to go so much now. Thinking back to last season I thought we played well 2nd half at Argyle, we battered Accrington at home without much luck/skill in front of goal but other than that it was pretty average/tedious stuff where we pinched a number of games 1-0. Aldershot, Barnet, Cheltenham immediately spring to mind.

Ling's way is fine while you're winning, people forgive performance for points. To a lesser extent people will forgive points for good performances, because eventually that will turn around. It's when you don't play well and don't win that murmurs of discontent will spread. We are coming towards this point at the moment. Despite our league position which to be honest for us is excellent, there is a clear massive lack of footballing talent in that dressing room. You can look at that 2 ways, 1. Ling is getting the maximum of what he's got - which would be a fair comment or 2. What Ling has had budget wise he's spent it pretty poorly. Again I'm somewhere in the middle of this.

I put on another thread, I hate the loan system I really do. I think it's a joke and teams abuse it to make a side they can't afford to actually create but do it for short term gain. I think Ling is to be commended for only using it for emergencies or signing players on loan that we could actually afford to sign at the end of their contracts. However I can understand fans frustrations at not using it when 'everyone else does' especially when it's our only realistic avenue of improving what we've got and we do need to improve.

Ling's not had an easy deal and the point fo we get poor crowds where's the money coming from is a valid one. Olejnik, O'Kane and Ellis must have been high on our earners list, coupled with over £550,000 of transfer fees in there must be a bit of shrapnel hanging around the club. I would also hope our club budgets itself accordingly for a club that gets 2500 per week so we aren't at a knife edge with our finances. The main issue with this is we don't know for certain what the clubs finances are like at this level. We are continually told our budget is 'competitive' and our expenses via wages must be less than last year, with the calibre of players we've signed and sold. There is no way Easton is on O'Kane's money, nor Poke on Olejniks.

My issue with the whole situation is we were weak going forward last year as a group. It was compensated by Mansell having the season of his life and getting 11/12 goals. That is about his entire career's worth combined in one year. It was a freak to tell the truth, mixed in with having for my money one of the best players in the division in O'Kane who guarantees goals each year, Stevens like Mansell had an extraordinary year + Howe we had a few that could win us the game. Mansell was never going to do the same again, it just wasn't going to happen, we lost O'Kane and replaced him with a player in Bodin who is nothing like him, both in the position played and overall quality and also Easton who just doesn't really bring anything to the party. I watched the game Saturday and I honestly couldn't tell you what I think he's good at. Atieno got stick last season but it's got to the point where I think we'd be a better side/squad if we had Tai here still!! He'd have been a better bet on Saturday playing up front than Jarvis who like Easton brings nothign to the party. At least with Tai he had a goal in him sometimes and was so bloody unpredictable that occasionally he'd just work.

I was chatting to a bloke in the pub beforehand on Saturday, tld him we won't score unless we get a penalty or a header from a set piece. I was bang on, we had a set piece header ruled out, other than that we did nothing. It's not for the want of trying or lack of effort, we just seriously lack any quality in the area of the pitch that matters. Especially with Howe and to a lesser extent Stevens missing. Having seen the game Saturday I am not surprised we lost to Harrogate. Get the first goal against us and we're done for. If Oxford had scored Saturday we would have absolutely lost that game, there would have been no way that side could have got back into that. This is where I think Ling has some accountability, we were mediocre going forward last season, we've done nothing to make that better. in fact we're worse, i ddin't see signing Jarvis as a good move as he did nothing in the loan spell to suggest he's going to make a real difference. We let Tai go for him, again personally I think Tai offers more as a lone striker (which Ling only plays), we lost our best creative midfielder and replaced him with a 33 year old free agent who doesn't create anything. His only real positive signing was Bodin who so far has flopped like Pele's chopper.

I still support Ling unconditionally, I just think like many managers do he's made mistakes and just cos Buckle shat on us (and he did royally) I'm not going to say he's St Martin and oh so brilliant just to spite Buckle or anyone else. Will call it as I see it and for me we are a much worse side now than we were two years ago, when we'd turn up at Oxford/Wycome/Shrewsbury wherever and pass the ball, create chances and have 4 or 5 players instead of 1 or 2 who could win us a game.

it's amazing we are where we are in the league at the moment, probably now is the time to say OK we've given everyone a go to prove they can contribute and make decisions on one or two that probably can't quite do it and try to improve that. Now is the time for us to bring in 2 loan players in forward positions to give us a plan B. so we can play 2 up front or even actually replace Rene and not conceed the game by doing so. I think what concerns me more is the fact Ling never talks about this, in fact the article i read last year said about getting a defender in. Magic, we don't need one to just sit on the bench again! McKenzie can fill in for the odd game and if anything happens longer term then bring one in. The forward thinking players needs improvement now. Lathrope,Mansell, Easton - that trio are all defensive first minded players. None unlock doors or create goals. Craig does slightly but maybe he was out of position Saturday but his only threat was via dead balls. Realistically we had TWO players in the first XI whose main thought is forwards. Jarvis and Bodin and that isn't good enough.

Cracking post royal and the bit i have highlighted just sums up our season thus far, away at least. How sad is that and i admire your honesty for admitting that you don't go to as many games as you could because the side are boring. I usually would get to as many games as i can, away at least often at massive cost and inconvenience to myself because i wanted to go and support the lads, i wanted to get excited before the match and i wanted a good day out. I now find myself not wanting to go anymore because it's just not worth it and i know what is going to happen. We'll defend for a 0-0 and hope to nick the game with our one and only chance by and large. Why should i bother going when i know the outcome? The lack of variety in our play has nearly forced me to stay away which is sad like i say, i generally support the team through thick and thin but this scenario is a new one on me as we are doing ok. The weird thing is that if we WERE inconsistent scraping a 0-0 one week, going gung ho and battering someone else 4-0 another week and the week after that being poor and losing 3-0 then in many respects that would be better for me as to what i want out of going to football. The unpredictability, drama and entertainment. I don't even care THAT much if we aren't doing brilliantly, i just want to get some passion for Torquay back because Martin is killing it in me. Like i said, i feel like a traitor but if another one of these atrocious defensive performance rocks up at Bootham Crescent next weekend then i won't be going again home or away for the foreseeable future until we look like we WANT to actually win a game of football. I was going to spend upwards of £200 going to the rearranged Daggers game, petrol, staying in a b&b, ticket price, food etc but what's the point? If i end up going i'd rather see us lose 3-2 than draw 0-0.

[royalgull]

It's not just the side is boring, the cost of it all is the major thing especially when trying tob uy a house!, but I'd make more of an effort to go if I thought we were worth watching. Barnet and Bristol Rovers were two games I would normally go to despite them both being a pain in the arse to get to. in years gone by I'd make sacrifices (both financial and also people ) to make sure I was there, this year I couldn't be arsed.

250odd at oxford Saturday, think that's the lowest amount of Gulls at Oxford I can ever remember. Worse for those that live in Torquay or like yourself the other end of the country where it's a massive commute to lots of games. I'm situated relatively near to a lot of away grounds in this league. I'll do some more this season for definite but I don't feel as though I really have to be there which I've felt in previous years.