JamieE wrote:
What's not rocket science is the point I'm trying to make regarding one of your players, Alan Connell. His example was all I was saying.
Of course, the idea of getting players cheap and then selling them on is a good one, and one which every club in League 2, bar Crawley, aims to run under. We do it. We now have saleable assets in the shape of O'Kane, Olejnik, maybe even Howe. Other players are a season or two away from being held in the same regard I believe.
But Connell is a valuable player for us, and we are still self sufficient. I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Some of you seem to think that we are throwing away a ridiculous amount of money but that just is not true.
And Benyon is about as much use as tits on a fish. Wycombe couldn't wait to get rid.
Come on Meaty, you know what we're all saying. Last year, Torquay, Accrington and Stevenage made the playoffs. None of them spent anywhere near even the sum you have paid for Connell. Stevenage are now tearing it up in L1. There really is no need to spend like its going out of fashion to achieve success down here. Take NTFC, spent £7m in 9 years, they're bottom. PAFC, spent tens of millions of pounds chasing exactly the same dream that Swindon are and look at them now.
Connell never is or was worth the money you paid for him. Constable himself is a pretty limited footballer as well. If you are offering 150K I'm suprised Oxford won't rip both your arms off to grab it. Ask yourself why Constable has spent most of his career at League 2 and below?
Connell has proven to be a very valuable player for us. He's a fans favourite as it happens.
The thing is that we can spend the money, and we can do so without pushing ourselves into debt. You lot seem to be suggesting that no team should invest in a squad, even when they can do so within their means. You seem to be clutching at not thinking Connell is up to much and holding on to that as though we are throwing money around needlessly. We aren't. We're investing for promotion this season and the next. Maybe Connell won't cut it at league 1, we shall see. If he can't cut it at league 1 however, making a wrong call on one player does not mean our recruitment policy is wrong.
Those teams that made the playoffs last season, good on them. How many of them were promoted? Our minimum expectations this season is promotion. Just making the playoffs without winning them would be considered a failure. With other teams at the to looking to strengthen, we'd be mad not to do so ourselves.
Paolos meatballs wrote:
You couldn't be more wrong about our finances.
We are actually one of the best run clubs in the country. After the previous regime, the current lot came in and are getting the club self-sustainable, operating within it's means. I suspect we make more/lose less than you do.
The majority of our players actually came on a free and not on particularly high wages. When we do pay fees for players, they are usually younger players that can be sold on at a profit. Think Austin and Simon Cox, and at some point in the future, Caddis, Ritchie, J smith, Ferry, Rooney, Foderingham etc........ Those lads are going to help us to the Championship and/or net us some big transfer fees.
They have been a little more relaxed in regards to their spending policy this season because getting out of this league is an absolute priority. But, in general, we are not 'spending' money. Rather we are 'investing' money.
I didn't make any comment on your finances at all - I said you were wasting your money with your transfer policy. If you have the money to blow, then fine, but even if you do then it's still not the best way to go about things. Di Canio won't do what's best for the club, he will spend every penny he's given to keep on buying players and give you the best chance of promotion now.
Numerous players bought in the summer are already surplas to requirements only six months later, and a player coming through your youth system like Bodin who is good enough to play at this level isn't sure of his future because it is dependent on who is brought in above him. There's no sense of squad planning at all, just spend as much as possible when the money is there. As pointed out, signing Connell over Bodin will cost £250k over the course of the season with transfer fee and wages, so I don't believe you're well run at all on the evidence of the last 6 months.
Paolos meatballs wrote:I suspect we make more/lose less than you do.
Taken from your fans forum after a quick google:
Profit & Loss accounts show the following (at May each year):-
2006 Loss £ 732,485
2007 Loss £1,753,349
2008 Loss £2,812,375
2009 Loss £3,012,582
2010 Profit £415,791
In the last five years that's a loss of £7.9 million.
I'm not sure how long you'd have to go back for to find the time when our build up of losses reached that level, but I suspect you'd lose patience before you reached the year. You're welcome to try.
De Vita. Good young player, and an investment for the future. A signing that we will eventually make a profit from.
J smith. Good young player, an investment for the future. A signing that we will eventually make a profit from.
Rooney. Good young player, an investment for the future. A signing that we will eventually make a profit from.
Fodderingham. Good young player, an investment for the future. A signing that we will eventually make a profit from.
Do you see a pattern emerging here?
Connell - 115k - 150k. You lot seem to keep rattling off that he was not worth it. If he cuts it in L1 next season (assuming we are there), he will be well worth it. On that we'll just have to wait and see.
Still nobody has suggested a good striker that can be bought for under 100k. Asides from Benyon, who has done nothing since he left you.
Something else you need to bear in mind is that we had to acquire more or less a totally new squad, with just a few remaining from last season. PDC underestimated the quality of L2, he's admitted as such himself. Many of those that came in were free and on low wages anyway.
PDC made a lot of free signings that were very good. He's also refused to sign players whose demands were too high. He also recently sent back a LB we had on loan because he wanted to use our own player (a youngster) instead.
PDC didn't feel Billy was ready, that's his opinion. If he was to keep a young player he didn't feel was up to the job instead of getting somebody he did feel was up to it, he wouldn't be doing his job properly. Now he (Bodin) seems to have developed further, it looks as though he may be staying.
To suggest that we are spending aimlessly just is not true. To suggest that nobody is watching the money going out is utter nonsense. The policy is, in general, to invest in youth. For a club with our resources we are actually spending very sensibly. We are not a Crawley that are spending more then we have, not at all.
Gulliball wrote:
Taken from your fans forum after a quick google:
Profit & Loss accounts show the following (at May each year):-
2006 Loss £ 732,485
2007 Loss £1,753,349
2008 Loss £2,812,375
2009 Loss £3,012,582
2010 Profit £415,791
In the last five years that's a loss of £7.9 million.
I'm not sure how long you'd have to go back for to find the time when our build up of losses reached that level, but I suspect you'd lose patience before you reached the year. You're welcome to try.
All debts accrued cleaning up the mess caused by the previous board.
To be fair to PDC, I've been impressed by him admitting mistakes in the transfer market early.
I wrote at the start of the season when Swindon were signing a load of Italians from the Italian 3rd division, they'll go either way. Either top by a mile or nowhere. It's one thing winning at home on a sunny August afternoon than it is winning at Macclesfield on a Tuesday night in League 2. Lots of these lads just aren't used to it and the up and at em in your face style of the English Division 4.
PDC has noticed that and since the summer he's moved some of them on, and he's also now recruiting players you'd think would do well in a) this league and b) LEague 1. Connell is a waste of money granted, he's never cut it really at LEague 2 nevermind any higher and if they've spent 6 figures they've been had, but the likes of Foderingham, Rooney and I always rated that Smith they got from FGR, I think will be wise signings. They don't need Constable, again that's a quick fix, he'd probably score 10 goals for them and maybe help them get promoted but would be surplus to requirements next year. Are the financial rewards between the divisions worth the outlay? Probably not at this level, different say Champ - Prem. Constable like connell has never done anything above League 2 level and there are reasons for that. There are better players out there for less money.
Onto the question are good strikers out there for less than 6 figures? Of course. Rene Howe, free transfer, Liam Dickinson free transfer, Jack Midson free transfer, Izale McLeod free transfer and a host of others. how much did Charlie Austin cost you a few years ago? There are players in non league as well as League 2 that wouldn't cost 6 figures. Burton bought Billy Kee from us for a packet of crisps and he's got 12 goals. There are plenty, all of the above are better than Connell.
Thing is nobody here knows the ins and outs of Swindon's finances, they've had a new board and of course should be allowed to start a fresh but I remember in the not too distant past STFC fans with buckets and their club days away from closure, now spaffing money out left, right and centre. as long as they are winning that's ok, it's when you're not it becomes a problem as Swindon have found out in the past.
The current board took over in 2008. The 2008 - 2009 figures are what it cost to eradicate already existing debt. The actual figure is closer to 5 mil.
What's more is that debt is held by the holding company, which is owned by the board. It's what the club owe to the board after clearing what was owed. The club owe nothing to anybody outside of the club.
Paolos meatballs wrote:
All debts accrued cleaning up the mess caused by the previous board.
I was responding to your own point that you make more profit than us, which isn't true. In the last 5 years you've made huge losses in 4 of them, so that's not an exception, that's the rule.
You've listed 4 players, but you've signed 20 odd players in the last few months. Some of which have already moved on and some of which are in limbo waiting on others arriving to see if they're needed. I stand by my assertion that that's not a very well planned squad.
Paolos meatballs wrote:That figure of 7.9 mill is misleading.
The current board took over in 2008. The 2008 - 2009 figures are what it cost to eradicate already existing debt. The actual figure is closer to 5 mil.
What's more is that debt is held by the holding company, which is owned by the board. It's what the club owe to the board after clearing what was owed. The club owe nothing to anybody outside of the club.
That's very similar to us then. But it wasn't the point I was arguing anyway - if you have the money and want to spend it (or build up debts to your owners), then fine. But you've wasted a lot of money this season on players who have already been paid up and players who have come in way overpriced at the expense of players like Bodin, who would be good enough for your squad anyway.
It's like Liverpool fans who consistently argue that Carroll was signed for a 'net profit' of £15m. They can kid themselves with that if they want to, but having sold Torres for £50m, they then wasted £35m of it straight away, which I think is very similar to Swindon at the moment. If you sell Ritchie in the summer for £1m and make a profit for the season then it doesn't mean the money you have spent has been spent well at all.
Gulliball wrote:
You've listed 4 players, but you've signed 20 odd players in the last few months. Some of which have already moved on and some of which are in limbo waiting on others arriving to see if they're needed. I stand by my assertion that that's not a very well planned squad.
You're missing the point that this is a new board. As, I stated they joined in 2008. This current lot probably will see better profits than most other clubs in the country. They just had to remove an existing debt from the last lot. You're judging the current lot by what the last lot did.
And you also seem to have missed the point I made about PDC underestimating the league. He's admitted that. We had to sign that many players because most of last seasons squad left, you seem to have missed that point I made as well.
There's no lack of planning at all. We have a very settled squad now. It was initially just an error of judgement which had to be rectified, and it has been rectified.
I really don't want to seem as if I'm having a go at Meaty, I'm not (and I'm sure no one else is, I just REALLY don't want our visitor to get the wrong impression that this is anything other than discussion) having a pop, but everything you've said is pure opinion and speculation. You say about 'good young player, will make us a profit when we sell him'. 'We're building for a push into the Championship.'
Yeah, lovely, if it happens, it'll be great, but let's not forget, a month ago, Billy Kee was 'worth' a million pounds, now where is he, absolutely nowhere.
These players are only worth what other clubs are willing to pay for them and there are precious few examples of L2 players moving on to the Championship (for example) for really big money. It really does take someone genuinely exceptional. I don't doubt that the players you list are perfectly fine for L2, and probably ok for L1 as well, but when you consider just how far ahead of everyone else guys like Le Fondre and Manset appeared to be while they were down here (and even our own Jamie Ward), I don't really see that in any of the STFC players.
Just as you are building for consecutive promotions, you come across as if promotion from L2>L1>Championship and then STAYING THERE is a given. You MIGHT go up this year, there's maybe a 1 in 6 chance that you'll go up next year too (plucked out of my arse, but seems reasonable), then you're faced with being competitive in the Championship. No one will come to watch if you're in the relegation zone, that's a footballing fact (well, as close to a fact as football ever gets). In order to be competitive in the Championship given no time to consolidate between now and then, you're going to have to spend MILIONS, perhaps tens of millions of pounds, because you need instant success. You haven't got time to spend a few quid on an up and coming squad, you'll have to buy (and pay the wages for) established talent, and established talent is seriously expensive.
While lovely, none of your present guys are exceptional in terms of numbers. None of your men has more goals than either our Lee Mansell or Rene Howe. For all your alleged brilliance (and hefty spending), you've not scored particularly heavily and you seem to be relying on being tight at the back to get you results. Nothing wrong with any of this, of course, but when you consider that your million pound squad is barely 5 points ahead of our million pound CLUB, it starts to look like bad value for money.
That and the fact that you cannot possibly be happy with paying a minimum of £19 for division 4 football to find all this crazy, disproportionate spending, can you?
Good luck to you, honestly, you go for that promotion. I have absolutely no reason to hope that you do not make a success of things and go on to make it to the 'promised land'. But with equal candour, I really, really will not be surprised if, 5 years from now, you're hovering over the trapdoor to the Conference, having narrowly avoided a winding up order at the High Court.
