Fans Forum-TONIGHT. Doors open 6pm for 7pm start

[PhilGull]

There are more fans of the club willing to help financially than the 1000-1500 core fans who turn up to Plainmoor regularly.

[Plainmoor78]

As far as I'm concerned it would be irresponsible for TUST to pour its members money into a blackhole for the sake of keeping the life support machine on for a few extra months and I don't see that TUST can do much more than that - maybe I'm wrong. Where I think TUST should be ready and where I would support is if the worst does come to pass and the current business does go under, TUST is ready to step is and support the club at a realistic level and turn it into a proper community club and build from there.

Rather than waste a couple of hundred thousand of members money and still likely end up in the Western League with nothing, restart the club in the Western League with a couple of hundred thousand of members money.

I agree with this statement. There is no point throwing good money after bad on a project that may be doomed to failure. The latest TUST email where Michael lays out his reasons for thinking community ownership could work admits he has no idea how the club could be financed beyond the first year of community ownership.
The GI loan is only one of a number of outstanding liabilities, the only one that we know of for certain. On top of that the club is running up an annual debt of £180k and for the last two years has had to take out large loans that it can not pay back. All this just to stand still.
When the current board were looking to take over the club they were told by their financial advisor to back off. I think if TUST were to seek similar advice they would be told the same. If the club were to face liquidation it really would be better to relaunch as a Phoenix club with a clean balance sheet and build from there by following a responsible and realistic business plan.

[Rjc70]

What you describe is the most likely thing to ultimately keep/reconstitute TUFC in some form if we default on the property developers loan and there is no buyer in situ before the end of January. GI may kill us as we currently know us. Most seem opposed to them now. Maybe all now the Board say they aren't the best of bedfellows. Hope so.

Masters, I think there is one lone list-topper on here who seemed keen to 'bring it on' when posting the other day, but nobody else as far as I have heard or read. He may have been less critical of GI previously as well, but I can't be sure and so be it as that's just one person.

After the rejection of a community share issue by the Board, no body could now get a community share issue completed by the January deadline created by the loan default provisions in our present circumstances ie: where there is not:-
A) desire by present owners for it or;
B) universally hated owners against it (e.g: maybe us with GI or someone as bad at the helm) or;
C) a void with ownership up in the air (eg: maybe us if GI disinterested beyond the 100k back). Examples abound of these three scenarios enabling this elsewhere. Hey, let's do it, is understandably less common. But happens as clubs realise the extra potential for revenue this up for them in their circumstances. We are not currently falling into any of the three main categories in large part because the outgoing board is not there on A) and B) and C) don't yet apply as I see it. All Clubs are unique, of course.

Support may appear fragmented, with the Board and local media playing their part in this for whatever reasons they have decided. Both they and fans are crossing their fingers and hoping GI won't happen. That was the message from last week. What will be the message over the course of the next two following Dave Phillips' remarks will provide the foundations of what many will judge him by come the end of January. Many have made their minds up already. For now.

We have been told:-
1) we could be totally b*ggered by January or;
2) taken over with news to come very shortly and;
3) TUST is not something this soon to depart Board want to consider.
A very small vocal part of our support are concentrating their mind on the one area of the three that they then conclude is the least relevant or in some cases would be the actual thing that saw the Club's demise regardless of this loan or in preference to news of new private owners on the horizon. Their choice, that's fine, I can hear the reasons as they've been discussed quite a bit. No problem. That's us and where we are right now. It may well be until the current crisis deteriorates; gets better; another crisis comes along; happy days are here again or something else. I've always wanted to believe we would do something about it when we needed to. I think we would. Whether that be at the first time of asking or second or when all hope is lost for many is anyone's guess, but we would. And sure as eggs are eggs, some will be dismissive and some will actively oppose, as that is what happens.

Are we all sure this Board will be gone by the end of January? They told us they were confident they would be gone as owners. On face value from their comments that's that from them barring the sale happening or reversion. Hell, we've even had that lone list-topper asking to fund raise to keep those reluctant owners who are stating their end is in sight to stay on for a bit.

Don't rule anything out even if the Board may have given the impression you should. Cause it might happen and they don't know it yet. That's not criticising any business plan they may have had. They had one at some stage, didn't they?We've heard a lot about business plans recently. Not of the Board's one from takeover to present - the ones who actually own our Club. Their current very short term one, I am guessing, is what they announced at the forum:- "Fingers crossed for new owners."

I've asked it elsewhere, but does anyone know what League a reconstituted Club would have to start in if we default on the loan and GI's media machine do their best to destabilise alternative rescue, whilst wrecking us, as they've done elsewhere??

[Plainmoor78]

Rjc70, can't give you the exact FA ruling on these cases but Darlington 1883 and FC Halifax Town were demoted to the 9th tier of the pyramid; both predecessor clubs were in the conference premier when they went into administration.
The FA ruling MAY be that no newly formed football club can enter the pyramid higher than the 9th their.

[Rjc70]

9th tier. Cheers. Will have a look, but that's one or two below Southern Premier, I think. Was at a Southern Premier club today. It got me thinking. Cheers.

Edit: Two below Southern Premier and one below Southern Premier Div 1 South and West. Ah, Toolstation Western League Premier. I see. Buckland and Willand.

[gullpower]

You're rather putting words in my mouth there gullpower however as you asked the question...

I wouldn't put money through a community share issue without it being very clear it had the realistic financial plans to sustain Torquay United for at least 2 seasons at conference level for a competitive wage budget and a plan of how to progress beyond that. I'm wouldn't put into anything that only takes ownership and address the GI loan but by the end of this season is out of cash and scraping around to try and prove to the conference it can compete another season.

As far as I'm concerned it would be irresponsible for TUST to pour its members money into a blackhole for the sake of keeping the life support machine on for a few extra months and I don't see that TUST can do much more than that - maybe I'm wrong. Where I think TUST should be ready and where I would support is if the worst does come to pass and the current business does go under, TUST is ready to step is and support the club at a realistic level and turn it into a proper community club and build from there.

Rather than waste a couple of hundred thousand of members money and still likely end up in the Western League with nothing, restart the club in the Western League with a couple of hundred thousand of members money.

Rather reluctantly I have come to agree with your sentiments (and Plainmoor78's) in the last two paragraphs due to the recent revelations over the size of the debts.

As PhilGull points out there are more than those that go to matches at Plainmoor who would invest through a community share issue. But would they do so if they knew that a large chunk of the funding raised was going into property developers pockets? And would TUST be able to run a club successfully with what was left of the community share issue after the debts had been paid off?

I have come to think that for a community funded club to stand any chance of being a phoenix club rising from (as Plainmoor78 has indicated) the 9th tier [or as Plainmoor78 has corrected 8th tier - but what's a tier between Gulls supporters!?], TUST would need to start with a clean balance sheet. Hopefully Torbay Council will allow FC United of Torquay to play at Plainmoor.

Fingers crossed for some good news this week.

[torregull]

Like much (all) of the TUST proposal, this is beautiful on paper but unworkable in reality. You'd be lucky to run a Toolstation league side on the money we generate presently. Thing is, Toolstation league sides don't generate the money that we do, so we'd have only enough to run a Sunday league side. Thing is, Sunday league sides don't generate the money that Toolstation sides do. And so it goes on forever.
Self-sustainability could only ever be achieved for us if we moved to a new ground which we owned and which had bundled with it many and various alternative income streams. The 1500 or so Torquay supporters cannot fund the business. What we need is to get a hotel, a gym, some restaurants, a dozen 4G pitches hired out, conference facilities etc. What's that, ten million pounds? TUST going to fund that, are they?

A bunch of well intentioned but poorly financed and talent limited fans owning the club under the TUST banner sounds frighteningly like the present setup of well intentioned but poorly financed and talent limited fans owning the club.

If TUST want to help (I'm sure they do), they need to act as a sounding board. They need to give up this preposterous notion of owning the club and dedicate their efforts to representing the fans' concerns and interests throughout the process of the impending sale.
If they were to approach the Board on this basis and offer themselves up on this basis, they'd certainly encounter less resistance than presently they are experiencing.

Matt.

TUST represented the fans' "concerns and interests" when the Board got "into bed"with GI-when everyone(but the Board) it seems. realised they were totally unsuitable buyers for the club.Unfortunately, they didn't listen and though the deal eventually fell through,the consequences of the loan agreement they entered into now threatens the very existence of the club.

[Plainmoor78]

:no:

Rjc70, can't give you the exact FA ruling on these cases but Darlington 1883 and FC Halifax Town were demoted to the 9th tier of the pyramid; both predecessor clubs were in the conference premier when they went into administration.
The FA ruling MAY be that no newly formed football club can enter the pyramid higher than the 9th their.

I should not have tried to research this at 2am. Darlington 1883 were relegated to 9th teir because the old Darlington would have been relegated to conference north that season anyway. Fc Halifax Town were relegated to Northern Premier div one, which is the 8th teir, equivalent of Southern League div one for us.
The 9th teir ruling that I mentioned applies, I think when a new club has no predecessor club. Meeting the ground grading criteria would also apply in all cases.
My apology for this balls up, unfortunately it has been also been mentioned another forum.

[ferrarilover]

TUST represented the fans' "concerns and interests" when the Board got "into bed"with GI-when everyone(but the Board) it seems. realised they were totally unsuitable buyers for the club.Unfortunately, they didn't listen and though the deal eventually fell through,the consequences of the loan agreement they entered into now threatens the very existence of the club.

Where would we be without the money they loaned us? What players would we have? Would Nico still be here? Would we be in administration and sat on -10 points?

Matt.

[arcadia]

Where would we be without the money they loaned us? What players would we have? Would Nico still be here? Would we be in administration and sat on -10 points?

Matt.

We would have gone part-time budgeted for what comes in and had a better team. Then we could have a meeting where everyone tells the truth and look to the future.
We really need a good person to come in and invest lets hope the people interested in buying the club are good people! =D

[Jerry]

Where would we be without the money they loaned us? What players would we have? Would Nico still be here? Would we be in administration and sat on -10 points?

Matt.

Maybe if we hadn't entered into such an overly long exclusivity period with GI another interested party (one of the 4 currently interested?) would have stepped up? Without loaning monies with strings attached.

[arcadia]

Clever people!

[Southampton Gull]

It doesn't really take a clever person to get one over on our Board. Dean Edwards took them foe 5 figures and still walks around Torquay like some messiah.

[arcadia]

It doesn't really take a clever person to get one over on our Board. Dean Edwards took them foe 5 figures and still walks around Torquay like some messiah.

I did hear.
Everyone is talking about money but the problem is there is no trust who holds the money who decides where it goes it's got to come from the club but it's hard to do this until somebody buys the club. There was money collected at the meeting but where does this go who controls it as it was in a bucket.

[Rjc70]

:no: I should not have tried to research this at 2am. Darlington 1883 were relegated to 9th teir because the old Darlington would have been relegated to conference north that season anyway. Fc Halifax Town were relegated to Northern Premier div one, which is the 8th teir, equivalent of Southern League div one for us.
The 9th teir ruling that I mentioned applies, I think when a new club has no predecessor club. Meeting the ground grading criteria would also apply in all cases.
My apology for this balls up, unfortunately it has been also been mentioned another forum.

No worries. Reading it feels like a promotion in 24 hours, so no need to apologise. Tier 8. Southern League Div 1 South and West, three below the current level it is, then. The one Hereford are currently top of. Cheers.