TUST Updates

[Shangull]

Thinking out loud....if Torbay Council were to confirm that there would be no direct or indirect deal over development of Plainmoor/Quinta wonder what would the price GI would accept to sell to a supporters driven group? If council would allow development of Plainmoor/Quinta with ownership of TUFC in hands of supporters group would fans be happy to see relocation to Willows if it meant regeneration of the club?

[merse btpir]

Thinking out loud....if Torbay Council were to confirm that there would be no direct or indirect deal over development of Plainmoor/Quinta wonder what would the price GI would accept to sell to a supporters driven group?

The club will always 'be for sale' at the right price; what do YOU think is the right price?

Estimating that the current ownership have injected capital approaching north of half a million ~ and possibly three quarters of a million ~ pounds since they moved in; I think you can start thinking in those sort of figures if you want a sale price.

Then there is the little issue of financing the ongoing running of the club; how much do you think that equates to on a monthly basis? £100,000 a month for starters I would estimate or around three grand a day!

The club was losing two grand a day under the Thea Bristow/Bill Phillips regime.....and there is no Football League money come in as there was when they were managing to mis-manage on that scale!

There are more than a few players who are contracted for next season too earning on or around £700pw; what do you think about that for an inherited liability? Make no mistake about it; Clarke Osborne has committed/is committing an awful lot of money to this project and will want his investment returned.

These are not nice things to read and even less nice to think about; let alone even begin to think about committing to are they?

[Yorkieandy]

Interesting post Merse.

If all this is accurate, and i'm not suggesting for one moment that it wouldn't be, then the chances of the TUST stepping in and taking over if push came to shove is zero. It simply wouldn't have anywhere remotely near the finances needed to run the club for a month let alone buy it outright.

That's not to say it's not admirable to try but the pure realism regarding the actual economics of it all doesn't fill you with confidence.

Thoughts anyone

[Shangull]

The club will always 'be for sale' at the right price; what do YOU think is the right price?

Estimating that the current ownership have injected capital approaching north of half a million ~ and possibly three quarters of a million ~ pounds since they moved in; I think you can start thinking in those sort of figures if you want a sale price.

Then there is the little issue of financing the ongoing running of the club; how much do you think that equates to on a monthly basis? £100,000 a month for starters I would estimate or around three grand a day!

The club was losing two grand a day under the Thea Bristow/Bill Phillips regime.....and there is no Football League money come in as there was when they were managing to mis-manage on that scale!

There are more than a few players who are contracted for next season too earning on or around £700pw; what do you think about that for an inherited liability? Make no mistake about it; Clarke Osborne has committed/is committing an awful lot of money to this project and will want his investment returned.

These are not nice things to read and even less nice to think about; let alone even begin to think about committing to are they?

Not really answered my question. Persovally the club is worth £1 on the basis of the potential losses incurred, no real assets, the liabilities of contracts and if the council clearly confirmed that there would be no land deal. To GI given there would be very little opportunity to recoup any money I'm guessing they would just wish to get out and take anything. The club having been for sale for many years with nothing coming to fruition. In term of costs of running the club reduce these to those with direct link to first team only. The rest filled by volunteers.

[Shangull]

The club will always 'be for sale' at the right price; what do YOU think is the right price?

Estimating that the current ownership have injected capital approaching north of half a million ~ and possibly three quarters of a million ~ pounds since they moved in; I think you can start thinking in those sort of figures if you want a sale price.

Then there is the little issue of financing the ongoing running of the club; how much do you think that equates to on a monthly basis? £100,000 a month for starters I would estimate or around three grand a day!

The club was losing two grand a day under the Thea Bristow/Bill Phillips regime.....and there is no Football League money come in as there was when they were managing to mis-manage on that scale!

There are more than a few players who are contracted for next season too earning on or around £700pw; what do you think about that for an inherited liability? Make no mistake about it; Clarke Osborne has committed/is committing an awful lot of money to this project and will want his investment returned.

These are not nice things to read and even less nice to think about; let alone even begin to think about committing to are they?

These are great things to think about. The worse it is financially for GI then the lower the price and the greater the incentive for them to leave. The club making profits and having lots of assets would have no incentive for GI to sell and get out of something which is a just a loss maker for them and unlikely to operate at a profit given current situation

[greb46]

The club will always 'be for sale' at the right price; what do YOU think is the right price?

Estimating that the current ownership have injected capital approaching north of half a million ~ and possibly three quarters of a million ~ pounds since they moved in; I think you can start thinking in those sort of figures if you want a sale price.

Then there is the little issue of financing the ongoing running of the club; how much do you think that equates to on a monthly basis? £100,000 a month for starters I would estimate or around three grand a day!

The club was losing two grand a day under the Thea Bristow/Bill Phillips regime.....and there is no Football League money come in as there was when they were managing to mis-manage on that scale!

There are more than a few players who are contracted for next season too earning on or around £700pw; what do you think about that for an inherited liability? Make no mistake about it; Clarke Osborne has committed/is committing an awful lot of money to this project and will want his investment returned.

These are not nice things to read and even less nice to think about; let alone even begin to think about committing to are they?

Possibly a break even figure of the club needing a home gate of around 3,000 then allowing for two matches a month ,so a new owner with a clean slate for Osborne to sell would be hard to find.As you say he's subsidising the club weekly at a loss to himself so obviously the alterior motive of something else for the site than running a football club which all are aware of.It does seem to be the only way to squeeze CO out is either hitting him in the pocket further eg:reduced gates or the council having the bottle to confirm that no leaseholder of Plainmoor will ever be able to obtain the free hold of the ground hence keeping any present or future developers running for the hills.

[merse btpir]

he's subsidising the club weekly at a loss to himself so obviously the alterior motive of something else for the site than running a football club which all are aware of.It does seem to be the only way to squeeze CO out is either hitting him in the pocket further eg:reduced gates or the council having the bottle to confirm that no leaseholder of Plainmoor will ever be able to obtain the free hold of the ground hence keeping any present or future developers running for the hills.

Developers are well known for sitting on 'slow burners' and what slower burn than a football club sliding down the pyramid in a ground that is leasehold rather than freehold?

Osborne has done it with greyhound venues and their accompanying speedway ventures. Now read of his latest manoeuvring in Swindon, right at the heart of his operation:
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news ... for_arena/

The rumours about Gaming International's tactics at Blunsdon were correct. They now propose to use the existing stadium site at Swindon for a new build rather than put it next door; that project has been going on for over ten years and what (we now ask) will they do with the site on which they proclaimed they were going to erect that pre-fabricated stadium?

They claim (as usual) that they are ready to start work "as soon as we receive the green light'' and that there was a "realistic programme to have the Robins racing on their new track this season.'' It's sure to be an improvement on what is there already. Strange, of course, that it's taken such a long time to reach such a pragmatic decision and the speedway season begins on March 22nd ~ I mean grant people some intelligence; it's as wild a thrash as saying Torquay United will have a new home in 2020!

No council can confirm that no leaseholder of Plainmoor will ever be able to obtain the free hold of the ground becasue no council is immune from the FACT that it has to be re-elected every term and in any case (as Soupdragon has already pointed out) the real momentum for freehold disposal comes, not from councillors; but the un-elected officers of the Torbay Development Agency and Osborne is well aware of that don't you worry!

and herein lays the rub.........

"our carefully designed programme will see the stadium out of action for a maximum of two weeks" ~ we'll hold you to that Mr Osborne!

[Yorkieandy]

In the newsletter, the TUST urged members refrain from any personal abuse or remarks against staff members at the club.

Whilst i completely understand the sentiment and whilst i appreciate it's generally unacceptable and immature to rattle of personal criticisms / abuse / comments etc, i did feel put out slightly by such a demand. If i wish to comment or remark on anything related to the club in public then i do so as an individual in my own right and nobody has the right to tell me what i can and cannot or should and should not be saying. I'll say what i want when i want if it's all the same thanks.

Again i appreciate the reasons behind this and the TUST wanting to be able to keep on a good footing with the club.

[Southampton Gull]

As is your right, Andy. I'll continue pointing out what I want when I want, like you say, as an individual.

[Uffculme1]

The TUST, was never and will never be in a position to buy the club based on the figures supplied by Merse, which without swearing at him appear somewhat conservative, especially in these days of vastly inflated wages for under inflated players, I only know one current team member and can say without giving anything away the salary of £700ish a week as quoted wouldn't get him out of bed.
The TUST is a group of last resort, when the lights have gone out, I believe they would like nothing more than to be taken seriously by the club owner and be a wise but independent counsel to them.
Although a TUST member, I would have to see compelling evidence that a successful community project in relation to football works.yes there are a number of them in existence and by successful I do not mean stopping them going out of business, I mean strategic plans to move clubs from conference or league two to the championship, the existing rules states that each TUST member has a vote , whether its a membership of 500 or 2000 you cannot ask each member for an opinion and expect agreement everytime you wish to sign anyone, change the strip, even change the light bulbs,so you appoint a chairman on a vast salary and delegate all the day to day decisions to him, I think some of you are ahead of me and are thinking we have been here before and that went disastrously wrong , If you talk to any Exeter supporter and ask them the opinion of their chairman, Julian TAGG,it ranks up there as being as popular as our owner.
Having read these forums for a number of years, even assuming anyone of us came into a spare twenty million overnight, was a true supporter and wished to buy the club and run it as a loss making hobby, could you honestly say the constant and hateful abuse you would receive on a daily basis make owning the club worth it. If the answer is yes then I freely admit you are a better person than I am.

[Yorkieandy]

The TUST, was never and will never be in a position to buy the club based on the figures supplied by Merse, which without swearing at him appear somewhat conservative, especially in these days of vastly inflated wages for under inflated players, I only know one current team member and can say without giving anything away the salary of £700ish a week as quoted wouldn't get him out of bed.
The TUST is a group of last resort, when the lights have gone out, I believe they would like nothing more than to be taken seriously by the club owner and be a wise but independent counsel to them.
Although a TUST member, I would have to see compelling evidence that a successful community project in relation to football works.yes there are a number of them in existence and by successful I do not mean stopping them going out of business, I mean strategic plans to move clubs from conference or league two to the championship, the existing rules states that each TUST member has a vote , whether its a membership of 500 or 2000 you cannot ask each member for an opinion and expect agreement everytime you wish to sign anyone, change the strip, even change the light bulbs,so you appoint a chairman on a vast salary and delegate all the day to day decisions to him, I think some of you are ahead of me and are thinking we have been here before and that went disastrously wrong , If you talk to any Exeter supporter and ask them the opinion of their chairman, Julian TAGG,it ranks up there as being as popular as our owner.
Having read these forums for a number of years, even assuming anyone of us came into a spare twenty million overnight, was a true supporter and wished to buy the club and run it as a loss making hobby, could you honestly say the constant and hateful abuse you would receive on a daily basis make owning the club worth it. If the answer is yes then I freely admit you are a better person than I am.

Great post.

Totally agree with the Exeter point. Tisdale is amongst if not THE highest paid manager in league 2. Tagg and the board are doing very nicely thankyou very much and whilst the club is thriving the point is that it appears to me that a situation has arisen where a select few at the top of ECFC are creaming it off and even the fans aren't able to effect any changes. Much like a club with malevolent owners.

Exeter is now basically a fan / trust owned model whereby the fans don't really have any power to wield. It's lost sight of that and now finds itself in a position where accountability at the top is getting more difficult as is proving that the people around the top table are actually doing anything close to what they should be given the perks they have.

Also you'd be insane to go anywhere near Torquay if you came into money as half of the fans take no prisoners and can't even give credit when somebody has at least tried to do the right thing but failed.

[chunkygull]

I was beginning to wonder what ambitions the TUST may have and what would be the ultimate goal. Any chance we had went when GI/Osborne got involved. I said just before it happened and impending doom was predicted that if the club needed a cash injection then they should have turned to the fanbase. Instead of a player fund which some supporters quite frankly felt was a bit insulting they should have done some sort of supporters share scheme. If the board had been honest and communicated then we could have raised the money, even if that was through the TUST. Its all about getting the word out and the message across. If the club told their lapdogs at the Herald to campaign for it and get the word out, it could have happened surely.

Figures of 30 grand were touted as being the amount that each member of that consortium put in, and it was constantly in the news that they were after more investors, so why didnt they go for a little bit of money from a lot of people instead of vice versa. A share scheme could have been run alongside private ownership surely, both would have given the club some capital. Why didnt the TUST at least set a target of buying a seat on the board. Could a consortium work now if we did want to at least try to buy out Osborne. Could TUST realistically be part of a consortium. How much money does Osborn actually stand to make from Plainmoor when you total how much he has already spent and how much more he may have to shell out.

Its Torbay council, the mayor and the TDA thing that concerns me, they just cant be trusted and certainly would not do the right thing by TUFC as the council in Hartlepool are promising to for their team. I would love to hear some noises that the Plainmoor freehold is not for sale and nor will it be, even if TUFC go bang they could give the same assurances that if the same rent conditions are met then a phoenix club could use Plainmoor. I DONT want a phoenix club but if we could keep Plainmoor then we definitely have a chance to rise again.

[Soupdragon]

Well, here's another idea to put cat among pigeons. Torbay Council has expressly stated (in a reply to an FOI request; response sent last September) that it "could sell the Plainmoor freehold to someone other than the current leaseholder."

Offer the TDA/council more for the ground than Mr Osborne is prepared to; job done. You'll be buying something with a setting tenant, for at least the next 60-odd years, so there's that income of c£15k annually to offset against the purchase price (and, for commercial tenants, the upkeep of the ground is paid for by the tenant).

That way, you can guarantee that TUFC will have a ground to play at. Easier - and a darn sight cheaper - than buying the actual club from Mr Osborne.

And, worse case scenario, if it does go all t!ts up for the club, then we can just sell the ground to the school.

Given the increased interest currently in TUST (if people are indeed putting their wallets where their mouths are) and the fact that TUST can apply for funding/grant money that isn't available to private companies, then I really don't see why this isn't a doable ambition. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

[Yorkieandy]

I don't see how the TUST will ever be in a position where it has more money to offer than CO, even given the dispensations you mention in terms of funding, but it seems a valid point soupdragon.

[Tired Old Gull]

I may be thick, I probably am! (It’s my age) – but what exactly do the TUST hope to finally achieve in the long run?

It’s already been stated that they don’t want to buy the Club and run it, even if they were in a financial position to do that.
So, what do they really want to do?

I cannot see CO/GI accepting any “interference” or listening to them via a board rep or any other means – and let’s be honest, if any one of us owned the Club would we really want 'outsiders' trying to put their oar in and disrupt things? No, of course not.
I doubt if any owner of any business would take kindly to that, probably politely but firmly saying “It’s my business, my concern, my money so f-off”!

I’ve known Mike Thomas (and his wife) for years, he is an honest and reputable chap, but what does he want the TUST to achieve under his reign, and how far is he prepared to go with taking on CO/GI in any long running legal battle over ownership?

Mike .. over to you if you post here!