League 2: Southend United vs Torquay United

[AustrianAndyGull]

That maybe the case Dave but if the players aren't following his instructions then he should be taking steps to make sure they do. I know its not as easy as i'm making out but he is ultimately responsible for his team and it appears that he is blaming his players for defeats instead of holding his hands up and admitting responsibility. That is something i would never say publicly as a manager and it smacks of covering his own arse. If he admits to not being able to get the players to do what he wants after MOST games then firstly we are really screwed and secondly we need to replace him immediately and get someone in who can. Looking back on the appointment, Foster would have gone down a storm here i reckon and with the players. Young and adventurous and determined as opposed to what we have now. I know who i would have preferred.

[Southampton Gull]

If you mean Forster, where is he? Anyone else decided he's worth taking a punt on?

Either way, we're a third of the way through the season, I'm not going to panic just because we're on a winless streak, calling for the manager to be sacked after such a short period is just fickle IMHO. We still have the same squad that managed to have a spell in the play-off berths so I believe the talent is there just not showing it right now and that's what happens when a side has to be put together so quickly, I'm just being realistic.

[Old_Yella CUFC]

I was moved to register on this forum, not to gloat, but because I feel as if I've stumbled into some bizarre time warp.

It's weird because it's *exactly* what happened at Cambridge United, and I'm pretty sure that you can readily find some Orient fans that would say the same thing. Everything is so spookily similar. Right from the "give the man a chance" phase to the utterly demoralising unexpected and inexplicable heavy defeats (we lost home games 0-5 and 3-6 as well as losing 0-4 away in one thoroughly depressing and morale sapping short spell).We had exactly the same debates on our boards, with the same division of opinion between the less patient and more reserved posters, as well as the endless threads about consolidation, budgetary restraints, and apparent tactical ineptitude. We also endured the same cringe inducing public criticisms of the players by Ling in our local press. He just kept on blaming the players when things went wrong. Some of those players were incredibly young as well. Martin Ling put together a (relatively) expensive squad of very ordinary players that didn't even manage to put in ordinary performances if truth be told.

In the end the whole saga sapped the club almost dry. Not just the players, but the people that worked at the club and the supporters. Both casual and staunch. It's like a malaise that you just can't see past in the end. It drags everybody down and makes watching your team a thoroughly depressing experience.

I hope that Martin Ling can sort things out for you. There can be no doubting that he is a thoroughly decent chap that works incredibly hard. However, he just does not seem to know what to do when things go wrong, other than to point out the size of his budget and blame his players. My personal belief is that he is not a great tactician, nor is he a person that can motivate players when the going gets tough.

Well, I wish you guys the best of luck. This little dose of deje-vu has brought back very unpleasant memories for me. My club is just starting to recover from Lings damaging tenure as manager. Our new man has a much smaller budget and has an almost entirely new squad. We've already reached a points total that took us until January to reach last year, and then another whole month before gaining any more points after that. There is a renewed optimism around the place that is just so liberating and refreshing.

I hope Martin Ling makes things right and it all comes good for you, but I somehow suspect that he won't.

Keep your chins up lads.

[AustrianAndyGull]

Cheers old yella, great post. I am not calling for Ling to be sacked but in the pit of my stomach something at TUFC is just not quite right and if we put our faith in Ling i 100% believe that we will be on the cusp of non-league football once again. Like you say, i get a feeling when watching torquay of player apathy and exactly like you said, a malaise that you can't see the other side of. Its like going to a game knowing we are going to be shite, knowing we are not going to compete and just being resigned to it to the point of fan apathy. It is a weird feeling Old Yella but i get that now. You can't put your finger on it but you expect defeat and it starts not to bother you when defeat comes as if its inevitable. Its as though the performances of the players put you in a sort of trance that makes you indifferent to what you are seeing on the pitch. Pretty spooky really reading your post and knowing how i feel about it all myself. You are spot on.

[brucie]

I'm not sure that Ling was the right man for the job but as Southampton says you have got to question the boards role in all this really.
I am panicking because i don't feel we have the calibre of players to dig us out of this hole. Hopefully I will be proved wrong.

[hector]

Brett, why do you think Ling should go? It's not like he has the money to go out and buy decent players that could make a real difference is it? He took the job on knowing it would be tough, once the proposed budget was known Buckle couldn't get out of the door quick enough and it's not like we were inundated with suitable applicants to take over from him. Ling was and still is the best man for the job, I'd have thought that you of all people would resist saying something that fickle. Out of interest, who do you think could take over and do a better job? Any new manager coming in would have to raise money to be able to spend any, what saleable assets besides O'Kane do we have?

I'm amazed the Board are getting away with this and all the flak is being aimed at Ling. a proven manager at this level and one that took a similarly sized club to us up to League One and kept them there. People need to be more realistic and stop blaming a manager who has his hands tied. Ellis came in today and we still shipped 4 goals, Jeff who was there rated Saah in his top five players yet still Saah gets stick and Ling for picking him. If we could have afforded to keep Branston or even get him back on loan we would have, the truth is that we don't. The Board are still making the same cock-ups, who in their right minds would have planned for a redevelopment that starts a third of the way through the season when it could have been started at the end of one and arrangements made to play a few more away games until completed. The Football league knew we weren't ready and you can bet your last pound that this is why permission wasn't granted to do so.

The Board are the ones that need to make changes, Simon Baker couldn't steer a dinghy let alone a football club. It's time he stood down and let someone else start pushing the club in the right direction. Each time we have a big game it's the same old incompetence in handling ticketing issues, the communications issues are still apparent and for all the good work done by the club as a whole we're still light years behind other clubs. I understand the need to tighten the pursestrings, I support Martin Ling in what he's trying to do but it's time the Chairman started to question his own role. There are better candidates in the Boardroom than him and they're being held back from doing what needs doing.

This is also the same Martin Ling who went 6 months without a win at Cambridge in the Conference and seems to be repeating the feat here. You are only as good as your last job - otherwise Peter Reid would be doing better than he is - and Ling's record is shocking. He should go.

[hector]

The thing is, Andy, judging by his comments after most games it would appear that the players aren't following his instructions. I'm not for one moment suggesting Ling is faultless, it's just that I don't lay the blame entirely at his feet.

Well, why on earth not? he is the manager. If he cannot direct his players effectively he should go. He is not good enough. That is it, sadly.

[hector]

If you mean Forster, where is he? Anyone else decided he's worth taking a punt on?

Either way, we're a third of the way through the season, I'm not going to panic just because we're on a winless streak, calling for the manager to be sacked after such a short period is just fickle IMHO. We still have the same squad that managed to have a spell in the play-off berths so I believe the talent is there just not showing it right now and that's what happens when a side has to be put together so quickly, I'm just being realistic.

Forster is at Dover.

[Southampton Gull]

Precisely, he's at Dover.

As for Ling, he's better than several other managers in this league if we use your logic, which is flawed to say the least.

[hector]

Precisely, he's at Dover.

As for Ling, he's better than several other managers in this league if we use your logic, which is flawed to say the least.

Well, turning play-off finalists into relegation candidates in a matter of months is some achievement so quickly on a middle 8 budget. Ling is not good enough. His last job and his current one prove that.

[Southampton Gull]

He didn't inherit the side that got to the play-offs though, did he?

He was good enough to get Orient into League One and keep them there or did you conveniently forget that? As for his last job, it wasn;t Cambridge, he was scouting for Walsall. a team in League One still, so based on his last job (your basis for an argument, not mine) he is good enough..............

[hector]

He didn't inherit the side that got to the play-offs though, did he?

He was good enough to get Orient into League One and keep them there or did you conveniently forget that? As for his last job, it wasn;t Cambridge, he was scouting for Walsall. a team in League One still, so based on his last job (your basis for an argument, not mine) he is good enough..............

So you think a scout for a League 1 club is qualified to manage? (Your argument, not mine).

Orient was sometime ago. In the same way that Sunderland was sometime ago for Peter Reid and yet not many would consider him a good manager now, likewise, Ling was appalling at Cambridge and he is continuing in that vein here. The accounts written on here by Cambridge fans just confirms what one can see is happening at Plainmoor. Simon Baker made a serious error of judgement going for Ling and the longer we persist in this failed experiment the more costly it will be because sadly, this is going to end in tears.

[Southampton Gull]

No, it was your argument that his previous job was the basis of whether he was deemed good enough or not, I just pointed out how flawed your argument was.

Also, Ling wasn't Bakers choice*. What happened at Cambridge is irrelevant, non-league club with aspirations to get promoted, not League club just wanting to retain their league status.

(*just to help put you in the picture, the budget was set and a three man committee then chose the best candidate who could operate within that budget)

[hector]

No, it was your argument that his previous job was the basis of whether he was deemed good enough or not, I just pointed out how flawed your argument was.

Also, Ling wasn't Bakers choice*. What happened at Cambridge is irrelevant, non-league club with aspirations to get promoted, not League club just wanting to retain their league status.

(*just to help put you in the picture, the budget was set and a three man committee then chose the best candidate who could operate within that budget)

How can you suggest that Cambridge is irrelevant? What utter nonsense. His job is still to try and win football matches. But he couldn't. In fact it should have been easier for him there. How convenient that you choose to ignore his recent record from less than a year ago to focus instead on promotion with Orient many years ago. In fact, you use that promotion as a rather flimsy basis of support but then if we apply YOUR argument that the Cambridge disaster is irrelevant, then so is that, as a League club wanting to retain league status does not have much in common with promotion.

Thank you for pointing out the intricacies of the 3-man selection committee. My point in saying Simon Baker is simply he is the symbolic figurehead who chose Ling...although I have it on fairly good authority that Ling was only belatedly interviewed as a result of a conversation Baker had with an Exeter City director.

[Southampton Gull]

I pointed out why it IS irrelevant, you just choose to ignore it. The Orient job is relevant because it was a job at the same level as we find ourselves in and he succeeded once before.

As for your "fairly good authority" you're totally wrong...again.