New Stadium-The Willows

[Jeff]

The murky waters are clearing - I am beginning to understand what is wanted and what is on offer.
The Company want to build on Plainmoor so need to relocate the Club and then purchase the land from the Council which holds the freehold.
We are being offered a minimalist stadium of 6000 capacity which will meet football league standards. It won't be particularly accessible because there are only two main ways out of the Willows, Newton Road and Barton Hill Road? The rest of the package is perhaps negotiable but whether the Club has exclusive use or has to allocate some community time is unclear.
Don't hold your breath on the ground being used for pop concerts etc, there are too many stadia in this country chasing too few acts who can fill them. The catchment population is also too small. Most stadia have several million people living within an hours travel.
Finally remember that not all new stadiums have been a resounding success. Wycombe have had financial problems and Nene Park which was home to Rushden and Diamonds is about to be demolished. Neither R & D or Kettering Town were able to survive there.

Probably not a fair comparison, as Rushden & Diamonds were always a plastic club in the middle of nowhere and Kettering lurched from crisis to crisis for a number of years. This would only be comparable if our new stadium was being proposed to be in Stoke Gabriel rather than adjacent to the main road into Torquay and potentially within walking distance of the new Edginswell Station.

I want this to happen, but only if the deal is right. There certainly sounds like there is a hell of a lot of dialogue to be had before this comes anywhere close to being a realistic proposition

[hector]

I wonder what is meant by a 'minimalist' stadium.

I think there is merit in the prospect of a more conveniently located stadium but it needs to be one that is built that enables the club to cash in on the Conferencing scene and similar forms of revenue, in the way Exeter Chiefs have done, and not some basic set of bus shelters that make Plainmoor look like Wembley.

If the new ground is set to be incredibly basic, then there is no point in moving. Plainmoor is a reasonably decent ground now - a new ground needs to be able to attract extra business, so something like the Chiefs Main Stand, with the facilities that offers, should be a minimum requirement.

[Jack]

Hector, "minimalist" is my thought alone, based on my belief that the Developer will want to spend as little as possible in order to maximise profit.
We will need a firm experienced negotiator to get the best deal possible for the Club if this goes ahead. We will only be in that position whilst we retain the keys to Plainmoor. Once we give them up we will have nothing to bargain with.

[Jack]

In the HE today, David Thomas is suggesting that the main driver encouraging the Club to move is the provision of a 3G/4G or whatever generation pitch to provide a steady income stream.
He suggests that the cost is around £350-£400k and that the pitch can pay for itself in about 3 years. He then asks why not Plainmoor?
Obviously the Board doesn't have that sort of money but collectively the fans might be prepared to make interest free loans in multiples of £1,000 repayable at say £100 per year over 10 years. What do other fans think?
There are two other considerations. The price of laying a pitch first time around will need infrastructure to provide drainage so might be more expensive than just a replacement 3G pitch. Secondly there are normally grants available through Sport England and others which would reduce the amount to be funded by the Club.

[ferrarilover]

We live in basically the poorest part of the country. We've got some wetbag who pops up here occasionally whinging that the £9 or whatever he would pay is half his Giro and he feels Torquay should subsidise him.

We have, optimistically, a dozen fans with a grand on the hip. Ten of them don't like the club enough to donate. That leaves me and you. I've not got £200,000 to lose for two millennia, have you?

Matt.

[Jack]

We live in basically the poorest part of the country. We've got some wetbag who pops up here occasionally whinging that the £9 or whatever he would pay is half his Giro and he feels Torquay should subsidise him.

We have, optimistically, a dozen fans with a grand on the hip. Ten of them don't like the club enough to donate. That leaves me and you. I've not got £200,000 to lose for two millennia, have you?

Matt.

I think that you are understating the collective wealth of Torquay fans,many of whom live a long way from Torbay, The wrinkles probably won't be earning much on their savings so wouldn't miss the interest foregone on a small loan to the Club.
Whilst the devil is always in the detail a lot of sporting organisations have used debenture type schemes to raise money in small amounts from a large number of people. It would all depend on the business case and the risk involved but it could be a better option than moving to a soulless basic ground to get an artificial pitch (if David Thomas is right in his HE article).

[ferrarilover]

Neither of us knows the situation for sure, so we could go round in circles forever.

It's a non-starter in reality, but for a laugh, what's the tax position? We get the 800 who were there last night to agree to stump up £500 each. Is it capital gains? Could we pool the money and buy a season ticket for the whole lot? Drive a dump truck full of used notes to Breedy's gaff?

Matt.

[chunkygull]

I think that you are understating the collective wealth of Torquay fans,many of whom live a long way from Torbay, The wrinkles probably won't be earning much on their savings so wouldn't miss the interest foregone on a small loan to the Club.
Whilst the devil is always in the detail a lot of sporting organisations have used debenture type schemes to raise money in small amounts from a large number of people. It would all depend on the business case and the risk involved but it could be a better option than moving to a soulless basic ground to get an artificial pitch (if David Thomas is right in his HE article).

Hence why I have asked the question and made the suggestion on a few threads - Why dont the club do some sort of supporters share scheme?

Rather than just asking for a charitable donation to a players fund, do a share scheme and at least make the fan base feel closer and involved with the club, make them really feel part of things and proud that they have invested in the club they love , even if they arent really buying anything or having any say with the share money it would nake people feel they have bought their own little piece of TUFC whilst putting in much needed investment.

[Jack]

I have found a 3G website that contains some interesting case studies


http://www.fansfor3g.co.uk/3g-in-the-news.html


The Bedworth United one shows what is achievable. Total cost £600k less £350k grant = £250k which was found through one donation. I was thinking in terms of a £600k gross cost because first time round there is the cost of base plus carpet. Normal wear and tear is 7 to 10 years and then the carpet has to be replaced.

We could have a 3G pitch at Plainmoor in time for the 2016/17 season subject to finance. I am sure the officials of Bedworth could tell us how to "tick the boxes" to maximise the grant income and then we would need to get out the begging bowl. Perhaps the TUST could help by administering donations and loans.

Think the unthinkable - sometimes it can happen!

[Gullscorer]

Say NO to artificial pitches...!!

[Jeff]

Some interesting views on artificial pitches

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35551542

I was in favour originally, but these viewpoints certainly make me think again

[Dazza]

I am not a particular artificial pitch fan either and appreciate the points being made in the article. However there seems to be a home truth that comes into play here. As we are unfortunately finding out to the cost of our club this winter, global warming, as far as the South West of England is concerned, seems to produce increasingly almost endless wet weather fronts in December, January and February. The playing surface at Plainmoor is obviously not at its best but I suspect we are talking of a problem that will occur much more frequently In future even if work were done on it. We are in effect getting weather that was previously only experienced in Scotland. As artificial pitches improve with technology it seems they are highly likely to be seen as the answer - if football is to continue as a mid winter game.

[gullintwoplaces]

I am not a particular artificial pitch fan either and appreciate the points being made in the article. However there seems to be a home truth that comes into play here. As we are unfortunately finding out to the cost of our club this winter, global warming, as far as the South West of England is concerned, seems to produce increasingly almost endless wet weather fronts in December, January and February. The playing surface at Plainmoor is obviously not at its best but I suspect we are talking of a problem that will occur much more frequently In future even if work were done on it. We are in effect getting weather that was previously only experienced in Scotland. As artificial pitches improve with technology it seems they are highly likely to be seen as the answer - if football is to continue as a mid winter game.

I agree with that. The rainfall in the past few winters has been unbelievable. My garden has been flooded repeatedly. I don't think this will go away either. All the opposition to artificial pitches flies in the face of reality, the UK is a very wet place in the winter and seems to be getting wetter.

[Dave]

Doesn't matter whether your a fan of artificial pitch's or not, they sanctioned for use in international football as long as they meet the required standard of testing, also sanctioned for use in every round of the champions league except the final. In England, they are sanctioned for use in the F.A Cup and the National league premier and below.

Two seasons ago we were talking about unprecedented rain fall, probably one of these 1-100 year weather events. We're talking about rain fall more unprecedented than last year, and the year before.

There are many local football clubs who haven't played a single game this season, since mid December, some have suffered anything from 7-10 straight postponements, this is something never seen before even at this level, completely unheard of locally.

With weather patterns as said above changing, and more and more lower division football clubs coming under financial pressure, it will be only a matter of time before the football league has no other choice but to allow 3g/4g pitch's, and football clubs/fans alike will have to embrace change.

[samuel]

I'm not a fan of artificial pitches. The modern trend seems to be call off games at the drop of a hat. Look at the some of the photos of the pitch in the 70's 80's. Muddy as hell or no grass at all. So what, it isn't as if we or the teams we play are exponents of Peps passing game. I like mud, heavy pitches, brute strength and clogging thrown into the mix because what comes out of that is desire and effort. The pitch, and weather, make it a more interesting game. Oh, and the postponements. I think in 87/88 Torquay had 5 games on the bounce postponed from Wolves home on 26/12/87 to Swansea 13/2/88. In fact they played a league game against Halifax on 12/12/87 and didn't play at home until Wolves on 23/2/88. 1 freight rover in between on 19/1/88. 73 days without a league game.