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Plymouth Gull wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 08:04 It's a very negative outlook when we are at home and need a result though, in my opinion. We played with a flat back 5 from the hour mark onwards, as Sutton pressed the wing backs back. On top of this, the midfield became deeper and deeper, with only Young providing a link between the team and the two forwards. That is, until he was switched into the CDM position when Evans replaced Efete (Barnes moving to right back). While Efete was struggling, losing Young's ability to get forward up the inside left channel providing a further outlet when we did have the ball did hurt us.

We were very defensive and the gap between the two forwards and the rest of the team got progressively bigger, which meant that even if we did get the ball forward, it was 2 vs 6 - due to Sutton's central midfielders regaining position quicker than our midfielders getting forward. It ended up looking like a 5-1-2-2 at points which is an extremely negative tactical formation at the best of times. Sutton were not a good side; I don't believe there are any this season in this division, but once again, we have managed to come away with nothing.

Relegation will be confirmed before March in my opinion - and then the fun will really begin in terms of off-field shenanigans. I can hardly wait.

P.S - one final note. Fair play to Sutton for the most effective use of a GK I've seen at Plainmoor in a long time. Absolutely acted as a sweeper keeper, often rushing out of goal in order to receive the ball from a free kick up near the half way line. It's bold, but when faced with a defensive minded team like us (ie leaving one upfront), it gave them a much higher chance of keeping the ball.

I agree, we were so deep it made it easier and easier throughout the game for Sutton to pile on the pressure, at 1 nil then 1-1 I’d suggest we were probably the better team, granted we didn’t create much but neither did they, a second lucky break for the 2nd and all we had to do was hold on for 2 mins till half time. Their keeper was brave and just solidified the fact we were so deep and not pressuring enough, except romain Elliot who I think would run all night! (The ref wasn’t great, but we knew that we realised who it was, but he was worse for Sutton, how he gave our first, shocking really. Little mention for the Sutton bench, they were abusing fans in bristows all night, not good to see!).

Second half we gave away a sloppy goal, from another set piece!!!! Makes you wonder what they do in training all week, but then again, 3 mins injury time and we can’t hold on to, what would of been a good point. How many times this season have we conceded in the last 5 mins of games! So frustrating, the fat lady is walking to the stage for a solo vocal I think!!! Owers has to go, Harrop also(though he won’t!!)

goody2449 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 08:19

I agree, we were so deep it made it easier and easier throughout the game for Sutton to pile on the pressure, at 1 nil then 1-1 I’d suggest we were probably the better team, granted we didn’t create much but neither did they, a second lucky break for the 2nd and all we had to do was hold on for 2 mins till half time. Their keeper was brave and just solidified the fact we were so deep and not pressuring enough, except romain Elliot who I think would run all night! (The ref wasn’t great, but we knew that we realised who it was, but he was worse for Sutton, how he gave our first, shocking really. Little mention for the Sutton bench, they were abusing fans in bristows all night, not good to see!).

Second half we gave away a sloppy goal, from another set piece!!!! Makes you wonder what they do in training all week, but then again, 3 mins injury time and we can’t hold on to, what would of been a good point. How many times this season have we conceded in the last 5 mins of games! So frustrating, the fat lady is walking to the stage for a solo vocal I think!!! Owers has to go, Harrop also(though he won’t!!)

The three stooges will be impossible to remove .

I assume we all accept it's over now in terms of the league ?

Wish I was there last night with there keeper being used as a defender of sorts. Love this kind of stuff and they won the game so well done

tomogull wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 00:10Yet again, we were let down by the wrong formation. No width.......

Is it a 3-5-2 or a 5-3-2? Our formations are blurred at the best of times, but we can at least say there is a discernible back three and two wing-backs. With three central defenders, our back line should have a spare man even against a 4-4-2 and our wing-backs are really just deep-seated attackers. So what could go wrong?

In order to use this formation, you've got to have a talented squad. The centre-backs, in particular, need to be of a specific mould .The three centre backs absolutely have to be highly intelligent, well drilled, and technically gifted. The central defender must be dominant in the air and happy to move forward with the ball—if he isn't positionally perfect, none of them are. It's flawless, or it's tragic.

Little things can throw a three-man defence when it's inexperienced. If the opposition play one up front it can become tough to figure out who should mark the front man. If the central player man-marks, what do the others do? This is where the danger of the false-nine lurks and the biggest worry for a 3-5-2. When the line is destroyed and one of the defenders is dragged infield, or gets lost and the outside two squeeze in to try and compensate. This leaves massive holes, as there are no full-backs whatsoever. Do it right and the 3-5-2 can be brilliant, do it wrong and it's self-destructive.

At the beginning I admired Owers courage for thinking that Torquay United were in the same mould of Barcelona and Juventus and had the squad to match. But the reality is, of course, we don't. If the 3-5-2 were to become mainstream, defenders who simply tackle and clear would be in danger of becoming redundant. I think it is self-evident by our league results under Mr Owers & Co that this 3-5-2 formation is not a winning formula. The real strength of a team does lay in flexibility one that can easily change formation on the fly between attacking and defending, and that’s a hallmark of intelligent coaching and players. For example, Owers could play a 4-4-2 which immediately turns into 4-2-4, or vice versa. But no he remains dogmatically with this failed 3-5-2 formation taking us ever closer to regional football. This just reaffirms to me that Gary Owers is not the world-class thinking footballer manager he may think he is and quite frankly appears to be way out of his depth. Try as he might I am afraid his best is just not good enough.

MellowYellow wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 09:27 Is it a 3-5-2 or a 5-3-2? Our formations are blurred at the best of times, but we can at least say there is a discernible back three and two wing-backs. With three central defenders, our back line should have a spare man even against a 4-4-2 and our wing-backs are really just deep-seated attackers. So what could go wrong?

In order to use this formation, you've got to have a talented squad. The centre-backs, in particular, need to be of a specific mould .The three centre backs absolutely have to be highly intelligent, well drilled, and technically gifted. The central defender must be dominant in the air and happy to move forward with the ball—if he isn't positionally perfect, none of them are. It's flawless, or it's tragic.

Little things can throw a three-man defence when it's inexperienced. If the opposition play one up front it can become tough to figure out who should mark the front man. If the central player man-marks, what do the others do? This is where the danger of the false-nine lurks and the biggest worry for a 3-5-2. When the line is destroyed and one of the defenders is dragged infield, or gets lost and the outside two squeeze in to try and compensate. This leaves massive holes, as there are no full-backs whatsoever. Do it right and the 3-5-2 can be brilliant, do it wrong and it's self-destructive.

At the beginning I admired Owers courage for thinking that Torquay United were in the same mould of Barcelona and Juventus and had the squad to match. But the reality is, of course, we don't. If the 3-5-2 were to become mainstream, defenders who simply tackle and clear would be in danger of becoming redundant. I think it is self-evident by our league results under Mr Owers & Co that this 3-5-2 formation is not a winning formula. The real strength of a team does lay in flexibility one that can easily change formation on the fly between attacking and defending, and that’s a hallmark of intelligent coaching and players. For example, Owers could play a 4-4-2 which immediately turns into 4-2-4, or vice versa. But no he remains dogmatically with this failed 3-5-2 formation taking us ever closer to regional football. This just reaffirms to me that Gary Owers is not the world-class thinking footballer manager he may think he is and quite frankly appears to be way out of his depth. Try as he might I am afraid his best is just not good enough.

Very

MellowYellow wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 09:27 Is it a 3-5-2 or a 5-3-2? Our formations are blurred at the best of times, but we can at least say there is a discernible back three and two wing-backs. With three central defenders, our back line should have a spare man even against a 4-4-2 and our wing-backs are really just deep-seated attackers. So what could go wrong?

In order to use this formation, you've got to have a talented squad. The centre-backs, in particular, need to be of a specific mould .The three centre backs absolutely have to be highly intelligent, well drilled, and technically gifted. The central defender must be dominant in the air and happy to move forward with the ball—if he isn't positionally perfect, none of them are. It's flawless, or it's tragic.

Little things can throw a three-man defence when it's inexperienced. If the opposition play one up front it can become tough to figure out who should mark the front man. If the central player man-marks, what do the others do? This is where the danger of the false-nine lurks and the biggest worry for a 3-5-2. When the line is destroyed and one of the defenders is dragged infield, or gets lost and the outside two squeeze in to try and compensate. This leaves massive holes, as there are no full-backs whatsoever. Do it right and the 3-5-2 can be brilliant, do it wrong and it's self-destructive.

At the beginning I admired Owers courage for thinking that Torquay United were in the same mould of Barcelona and Juventus and had the squad to match. But the reality is, of course, we don't. If the 3-5-2 were to become mainstream, defenders who simply tackle and clear would be in danger of becoming redundant. I think it is self-evident by our league results under Mr Owers & Co that this 3-5-2 formation is not a winning formula. The real strength of a team does lay in flexibility one that can easily change formation on the fly between attacking and defending, and that’s a hallmark of intelligent coaching and players. For example, Owers could play a 4-4-2 which immediately turns into 4-2-4, or vice versa. But no he remains dogmatically with this failed 3-5-2 formation taking us ever closer to regional football. This just reaffirms to me that Gary Owers is not the world-class thinking footballer manager he may think he is and quite frankly appears to be way out of his depth. Try as he might I am afraid his best is just not good enough.

Great post MellowYellow.....
The frustrating thing for me is in the last few week is that at Macc (which I was at) and Maidenhead and at home to Barrow, we have played well.
Its not just the hope that kills you its the inconsistency....
I do feel slightly sorry for Owers, as he has seen how well they can play and then revert to the type of performances v D&R and last night.
As Brucie has commented, its poor that we have last so many points when we should have least picked up one in these games and the annoying thing is that this league is so mediocre.....
Will be going to Solihull and then Chester..... hoping we still have a chance of safety then.....

Great post Mellow Yellow

I'm off good Friday SNW so will be off to Chester most likely by train ( beers ) so be great to meet up with you and the other lads. Great company last time.

westyorkshiregull wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 10:13 I'm off good Friday SNW so will be off to Chester most likely by train ( beers ) so be great to meet up with you and the other lads. Great company last time.

nice one mate.
see you there!

Plymouth Gull wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 08:04Fair play to Sutton for the most effective use of a GK I've seen at Plainmoor in a long time. Absolutely acted as a sweeper keeper, often rushing out of goal in order to receive the ball from a free kick up near the half way line. It's bold, but when faced with a defensive minded team like us (ie leaving one upfront), it gave them a much higher chance of keeping the ball.

Although not a new tactical innovation in a strict sense; this tactic has become more popular in no small part to the successes achieved by elite managers like Pep Guardiola, Joachim Low, Mauricio Pochettino and Luis Enrique while using this tactic. Pep even raised a few eyebrows when he immediately asked for Manchester City to sign Marc Andre Ter Stergen from Barcelona, Barcelona refused to sell and Pep was forced to make do with Claudio Bravo who many are of the opinion is an inferior goalie (with his hands) to the axed Joe Hart who is a veritable dinosaur to any enlightened coach.

That's why in this day and age; two footedness, and a perfect first touch are as important for a goalkeeper as any outfield player and training should reflect the importance of that.........are United still operating without a goalkeeping coach? Only on Saturday I watched the Dulwich Hamlet goalkeeper Preston Edwards spending the first ten minutes of his pre-match routine doing one-twos with the goalkeeping coach, ensuring his first touch, two footedness and balance were good.

In simple terms, a sweeper keeper is a goalkeeper who controls the space behind the defensive line by pushing up and staying as close to it as possible and actively participating in his team’s play when they have the ball thereby operating as an eleventh outfield player. Modern football is all about space management and control and having your goalkeeper push up behind your defence, enables the team to effectively control that space.

That's why I think Dorel is superior to any keeper we have had in recent seasons as he prefers to play with his back line pushed well out away from him. Contrast that with the likes of Rice and that American fella who were inveterate line huggers and allowed the back line to get under their feet and in the way whilst conceding ground unnecessarily.

“In my teams, the goalkeeper is the first attacker and the centre forward is the first defender” ~ JOHAN CRYUFF

The father of total football Johan Cryuff put great emphasis on the technical abilities of every member of his team including the goal keeper. His philosophy which has greatly influenced his heir Pep Guardiola is all about mastery of space and being able to break through successive lines of opposition pressure to score; it is in this regard that a keeper acting as the eleventh outfield player becomes important. In football, 80% of the game is spent either trying to progress the ball through successive zones or trying to stop the ball from being progressed cleanly, this is the basis of attacking and defending, and that is why teams will usually instruct their furthest forward player to do whatever he can to restrict the opposition’s build up. It is in the first phase build up that the greatest danger lies for the team in possession because if they lose the ball there, the opposition has a shorter path to goal and can attack them directly. However, when the opposition presses with the same number of attackers as the team in possession has defenders to build up with the goal keeper becomes a vital means of creating an initial overload necessary for a clean progression.

Pep Guardiola has used this principle to devastating effect during his relatively short coaching career in which He has won 22 trophies in just 8 years. The first person to play this role for him was current Middlesbrough goal keeper Victor Valdes and all through his career he has shown a liking for keepers who do more than just keep.

I wish I had been there to see this put in practice last night!

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 09:57 I do feel slightly sorry for Owers,... the annoying thing is that this league is so mediocre.....

I assume you mean by 'mediocre' that every team is beatable. So why can't we beat them?

Mr Owers picks the players and the tactics and he is well paid to take responsibility for results. So why feel sorry for him?

When your at work if don't carry out your tasks and your paid performance is below the required standard does your manager and work colleges feel sorry for you.

So I ask the question again - why feel sorry for him?

MellowYellow wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 10:28 I assume you mean by 'mediocre' that every team is beatable. So why can't we beat them?

Mr Owers picks the players and the tactics and he is well paid to take responsibility for results. So why feel sorry for him?

When your at work if don't carry out your tasks and your paid performance is below the required standard does your manager and work colleges feel sorry for you.

So I ask the question again - why feel sorry for him?

with regard to the point I made about the varying performances.......
and I only said "slightly"....

The radio summariser had it spot on last night, in highlighting the gap between NL and NLS is the biggest there is between any leagues. Doing on to state fishing in the NLS for players is not going to keep us up, we should have been looking towards L2.

I know there are money constraints, but from January there were a number of out of contract L2 players looking for clubs.

If only we have contacts..................

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 09:57The real strength of a team does lay in flexibility one that can easily change formation on the fly between attacking and defending, and that’s a hallmark of intelligent coaching and players. For example, Owers could play a 4-4-2 which immediately turns into 4-2-4, or vice versa. But no he remains dogmatically with this failed 3-5-2 formation taking us ever closer to regional football. This just reaffirms to me that Gary Owers is not the world-class thinking footballer manager he may think he is and quite frankly appears to be way out of his depth. Try as he might I am afraid his best is just not good enough.

The key to it is intelligent footballers and I'm afraid the likes of McGinty ~ with his over use of fifty yard long ball stuff ~ looks anything but at the back and there are question marks in my mind over others further up the field..........John Cruyff would have had apoplexy!

Intelligent football is not a preserve of the highest levels either and I can point to highly intelligent coaches and teams in the Isthmian League at Dulwich Hamlet under Gavin Rose and Wingate & Finchley under Keith Rowlands ~ they play one another again at Wingate this weekend and I shall be there to watch it and if the game is anything like the fascinating game of ever changing tactics and formations as the one at Hamlet last month, then it will be fantastic.

Owers does change his formation in match though; but it usually leads to confusion and loss of shape ~ that is down to unintelligent players in my opinion. That's not defending the indefensible with Owers; his results record is appalling and does not support his being retained in the role that the club laughingly call 'Head Coach'; but it is significant that the two teams in the National League who have utilised the most players this season are bottom club Guiseley and ourselves. This ever changing kaleidascope of players is just hopeless and came about because of the ludicrous mis-appropriation of wages this summer leaving the club unable to support anything like a full squad without maxing out on the loan quotas.

merse btpir wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 10:27
I wish I had been there to see this put in practice last night!

No you would'nt Merse. Other NL teams know Owers is no more than a 'one trick pony'. Sutton playing a Sweeper-Keeper should tell you that last night they were playing with a high defensive line to nullify our predictable 3-5-2 formation and launch counter-attacking moves, just as Dagenham did. If Owers was one of the best defensively minded managers in this league and did not set up a formation to leave our keeper facing a barrage of shots each game, I would be satisfied. But alas our goal difference tells a different story. Sutton's managerial tactic's were to play a high risk game and play out from the back in full acknowledgement that Owers cannot change formation on the fly between attacking and defending. Be under no illusion, it was not a master class in Sweeper-Keeper tactics, rather we were unable (or incapable) to play through their press and run at their exposed defence and goalkeeper.