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Who specifically?yellowmonkey wrote:Can i just say that us as fans are managing to see the short comings of various individuals within the squad so why as a professional football manager can Mr Knill not?
It is one thing to have realistic expectations, but it is quite another to have NONE at all. For anyone to feel that where we are is understandable given the relative newness of manager and players is excusing the most shocking incompetence. Had the club advertised for a new manager and gone through a thorough recruitment process, rather than give the job to Knill simply because he was already in the building and a bandwagon, powered mainly by relief that we didn't go down, cheerleadered for him to get it, then maybe, if Knill was the best bet, I would agree with you. But they didn't. They took the easy option, even though, there may have been better options available.Fonda wrote:I think you missed the crux of my point Andy. It's not about being 'ok to be crap because we're TUFC', it's about having realistic expectations. We have a relatively new manager, with a lot of new players. And those players that aren't new are getting used to new methods. These things take time. It's not an overnight process, so to be moaning and whining that the team isn't playing like a well-oiled machine after a couple of months is just a little bit short-sighted.
This mentality of needing results NOW is understandable (though still stupid) at the top of the game. But it's absolutely ridiculous at our level. You don't give a manager a contract, and free reign to sign a lot of players, only to decide a matter of weeks later - 'do you know what, he's not the right man after-all'. There has to be a degree of patience. Look at David Moyes at Man Utd - he took control of the Champions of England, barely changed any personel, and they look mid-table at the minute. His methods will take time.
What would be the benefit of changing the management? Find the money to pay-off Knill, get in somebody else who would want to dump half the squad and bring in a load of new players, and start the whole process again. With absolutely no guarantee anything would improve - it almost certainly wouldn't in the short-term.
The manager should be changed when, and only when he's PROVEN to be unable to do the job. That simply can't be the case after less than 3 months of the season. And what would probably help him to get the full respect of the players and make his job just that bit easier, is not to have the support base questioning him so soon. Have a little faith.
As for it being 'the players, not Knill' that will get us out of this. That is always the case. If the players don't perform, the manager doesn't have a chance. But the majority of those players are 'Knill's players'. So if things improve, the manager will deserve a large chunk of the credit. I hope he gets it.
Just remind us how well sacking the manager in October worked out for Scunthorpe?hector wrote:He went to a Championship club in scunthorpe and himself admitted that he left Bury because he felt that he would be able to get scunthorpe challenging in League 1. Instead they were strugglers. Knill's record just does not inspire you to hope for anything other than mediocrity at best.
No one here have NO expectations. What the realistic among us have are expectations of finishing half way up the bottom half of the table, which, given a reasonable view of the club, the off field investment, the squad, the manager and everything else is perfectly acceptable. We're there or there abouts and we've got games against those around us coming up.hector wrote:
It is one thing to have realistic expectations, but it is quite another to have NONE at all.
Not at all. Where do you think we should be? Top? We're within 4 points of where we should finish (18th, for the record). Given that we play the teams in 18th, 19th and 24th place in the next calendar month, points are likely to come our way and those points will propel us to 18th or just above. Speculation, of course, we might lose all three matches, but that seems extremely unlikely.hector wrote: For anyone to feel that where we are is understandable given the relative newness of manager and players is excusing the most shocking incompetence.
You trot this out constantly and constantly you're asked either to prove it or stop taking nonsense. You do neither. The club did not appoint our manager on the basis that he got a big cheer from the Pop side. It is a trait of someone with massive psychological issues to believe that they, as a fan, might have that sort of influence. Whether we like it or not, we are not an attractive prospect to managers or players. There are all manner of Conference clubs who would be able to poach employees from us. The list of people willing to work here, under our conditions, would be extremely short and would comprise those already out of work. Out of work managers are in that state for a reason. Knill has a good record (if short) of doing well at teams in a similar position to ours. Making him an offer was a perfectly decent thing to do. He accepted that offer. Last year, Thea sacked Ling and the Board were slated for it, for being mean to a sick man, for being heartless and showing no loyalty. Imagine if we'd have simply let Knill walk out of the door after he saved us from almost certain relegation, there would have been anarchy.hector wrote: Had the club advertised for a new manager and gone through a thorough recruitment process, rather than give the job to Knill simply because he was already in the building and a bandwagon, powered mainly by relief that we didn't go down, cheerleadered for him to get it, then maybe, if Knill was the best bet, I would agree with you. But they didn't. They took the easy option, even though, there may have been better options available.
Hold the front page, we've sent a player out on loan, another one on the bench and we've sent back a loanee who looked nothing like as good as he needs to be. Christ, can you hear yourself? Yeoman has spent 99% of his Torquay career out on loan. As good as he looked for a couple of games at the end of last year, he's been here for, what, six years now and he's made half a dozen appearances. That MUST tell even you that there is something missing from his game. If we were stubbornly refusing to play a decent player, someone else would have taken him off our hands. They haven't, so there's a problem with him which we, as supporters, are not party to.hector wrote: You say that if someone else came in he would want to dump half the players. Isn't this what Knill himself is doing? He resigned Yeoman, Benyon and already he sent Callum Ball back.
O'Connor - Cover for the Injured Downeshector wrote: We had five recently signed players in our team yesterday in O'Connor, McCourt, McCallum, Azeez and Mozika to go with the others he has signed. One cannot imagine he has ended there and more will come and go, so if a new manager came in and did the same, then what difference does it make?
Oooh, maybe eh? **** ing maybe? You're willing to have almost £100,000 based on a "maybe". **** me, I hope you're not an accountant.hector wrote: Just maybe, a new manager will inspire the players to be more of a team unit
You weren't there yesterday then?hector wrote: He just does not seem to be able to inspire the fight or passion from players.
Fine, so we're a mediocre side. That's fine. To be honest, in a division featuring the likes of Plymouth and Portsmouth, I think we are mediocre. Knill's record has been explained to you time and again in here and this is something else you choose to ignore. We're all seeing a pattern among our more daft posters. They make points, get corrected, then ignore the correction and just keep on ploughing on regardless. It's transparent, it's boring and it's meaningless.hector wrote: Knill's record just does not inspire you to hope for anything other than mediocrity at best.
Oh **** it, it doesn't matter, we'll just blow a six figure sum for something which "might not work". It's a bloody good job we've got so much money that we can afford to do that sort of thing on a whim.hector wrote: So changing the manager might not work
For God's sake, I'm almost boring myself now. We're in October, what were you expecting? We've had an inauspicious start, but there is so far to go that "the way things are currently going" is as meaningless as the rest of this tripe.hector wrote: I cannot see it being much worse than the way things are currently going.
Newport and Mansfield, two clubs widely tipped for promotion. What are you on about? I'm not convinced even you know at this stage. We were better than those two. Mansfield came for a point and got one and Newport took advantage of us have no fit central defenders. With Downes and Pearce fully fit for that match, we win it comfortably.hector wrote: The game against Bury is against a team, that if we are decent we should beat - although one would have hoped for that against York, Newport, Mansfield etc - so if we cannot and we slip into the bottom two, then the club have a choice to make.
This really takes the biscuit. Absolutely clueless about the realities of running a football club. How much are these loanees costing us, Hector?hector wrote: Do they keep throwing good money after bad and backing Knill with attacking loan signings and risk slipping into non-league and the financial oblivion that ensures for TUFC? Or do they give themselves a fighting chance by acting early?
So would Alex Ferguson, what's your point?hector wrote: For those asking who? Whilst I am not a big fan of Martin Allen, I would take him like a shot. Whether he would come here is another thing but I don't think he is too out of our league. I just think he would have that galvanising edge that would propel, not a dreadful squad, to better performances than than the relegation team they are doing an impression of.
ferrarilover wrote:
No one here have NO expectations. What the realistic among us have are expectations of finishing half way up the bottom half of the table, which, given a reasonable view of the club, the off field investment, the squad, the manager and everything else is perfectly acceptable. We're there or there abouts and we've got games against those around us coming up.
Yes, the realistic do have expectations of finishing mid-table. Mid-table would be great. The apologists for Knill and his two wins out of 16 games, seem to be overlooking the fact that mid-table seems to be some distance away on current (fairly lengthy) form.
Not at all. Where do you think we should be? Top? We're within 4 points of where we should finish (18th, for the record). Given that we play the teams in 18th, 19th and 24th place in the next calendar month, points are likely to come our way and those points will propel us to 18th or just above. Speculation, of course, we might lose all three matches, but that seems extremely unlikely.
So points are due to come our way - yes, we thought that against the likes of York, the 'mighty' Mansfield (lost at home to Plymouth, yesterday - but then Plymouth are a big club so lets ignore the fact they are nearly as crap as us) and Newport, Hartlepool etc
You trot this out constantly and constantly you're asked either to prove it or stop taking nonsense. You do neither. The club did not appoint our manager on the basis that he got a big cheer from the Pop side. It is a trait of someone with massive psychological issues to believe that they, as a fan, might have that sort of influence. Whether we like it or not, we are not an attractive prospect to managers or players. There are all manner of Conference clubs who would be able to poach employees from us. The list of people willing to work here, under our conditions, would be extremely short and would comprise those already out of work. Out of work managers are in that state for a reason. Knill has a good record (if short) of doing well at teams in a similar position to ours. Making him an offer was a perfectly decent thing to do. He accepted that offer. Last year, Thea sacked Ling and the Board were slated for it, for being mean to a sick man, for being heartless and showing no loyalty. Imagine if we'd have simply let Knill walk out of the door after he saved us from almost certain relegation, there would have been anarchy.
This record of Knills at similar teams to us? What? Where? He got sacked at Rotherham and Scunthorpe for doing precisely what he is doing with Torquay. But let's look at his one good season at Bury and let that cloud what is happening now. You never know, if we keep our fingers crossed for long enough, it might all work out.
Hold the front page, we've sent a player out on loan, another one on the bench and we've sent back a loanee who looked nothing like as good as he needs to be. Christ, can you hear yourself? Yeoman has spent 99% of his Torquay career out on loan. As good as he looked for a couple of games at the end of last year, he's been here for, what, six years now and he's made half a dozen appearances. That MUST tell even you that there is something missing from his game. If we were stubbornly refusing to play a decent player, someone else would have taken him off our hands. They haven't, so there's a problem with him which we, as supporters, are not party to.
Not for one minute did I think Yeoman was suitable for our needs. But Alan Knill did. He extended his contract and then decided he wasn't good enough. He is doing the same with Benyon and did the same with Ball. Does he trust even his own judgement?
This £100,000 being bandied about as a compensation package should we get rid of Knill? Is this gospel? Do you know this? And if it is true What on earth, as a club, are we doing paying a contract worth £100,000 for someone with such a dodgy record?
Fine, so we're a mediocre side. That's fine. To be honest, in a division featuring the likes of Plymouth and Portsmouth, I think we are mediocre. Knill's record has been explained to you time and again in here and this is something else you choose to ignore. We're all seeing a pattern among our more daft posters. They make points, get corrected, then ignore the correction and just keep on ploughing on regardless. It's transparent, it's boring and it's meaningless.
A mediocre side - if only
For God's sake, I'm almost boring myself now. We're in October, what were you expecting? We've had an inauspicious start, but there is so far to go that "the way things are currently going" is as meaningless as the rest of this tripe.
This is hardly an inauspicious start - if only it were that good. It is a disastrous start. Appalling.
Newport and Mansfield, two clubs widely tipped for promotion. What are you on about? I'm not convinced even you know at this stage. We were better than those two. Mansfield came for a point and got one and Newport took advantage of us have no fit central defenders. With Downes and Pearce fully fit for that match, we win it comfortably.
Oh, yes, I forgot about your Newport conspiracy, where the referee and the BBC conspired against us to make it look like we lost a game that Newport scored more goals than us.
This really takes the biscuit. Absolutely clueless about the realities of running a football club. How much are these loanees costing us, Hector?
Sacking Knill will cost us (for the third time) a hundred grand or there abouts. How do you think we'll fund that? I'll tell you, we'll have to sell players, because we sure as hell haven't got a hope of getting it from anywhere else. Will we raise the required cash? No, certainly not. Our whole squad isn't worth that kind of money, let alone the one of two players we might be able to afford to sell. So, we'd go into administration for not being able to pay what we owe. That would cost us 10 points. we'd presently be bottom with 1 point and 10 from safety. We'd have no manager, because no one will come to us in the circumstances, which means that Andy Candy would be picking the XI every week. We'd be able to attract no players, either perm or loan, so the minute we got an injury or suspension, we'd be calling up the youth teamers.
So sacking Knill will put us in administration and then definite relegation will it?Of all the far-fetched nonsense, I have read on this site. So if the club have got to March, still in this mess, you will be one of those still urging not to sack him. Likewise, if we are relegated, you will still be there, saying we cannot afford it. So basically, if we are relegated, then that is it. We fold. Because we will lose a lot more income than it would cost to get rid of Alan Knill, if we go back down to the Conference.
So, tell me again about how sacking Knill will save us from relegation...
How will keeping him save us from relegation? two wins out of 16, 6 games without a win, worst defensive record in the division...
Matt.