Leave.EU Torbay

[PhilGull]

Regarding the trade deficit with the EU. Does anyone know the breakdown per country?. Bearing in mind we are going to have to negotiate trade deals with EU countries individually we need to know the numbers per country to make a decision on this particular aspect. This is the most frustrating thing from both sides - all of the 'facts' are too vague!

[Gullscorer]

Some statistics here:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/ ... s/OTS.aspx
http://www.tutor2u.net/_legacy/blog/fil ... ith_EU.pdf
https://data.gov.uk/dataset/uk_overseas ... statistics

Some researchers claim that our overseas trade would be disadvantaged if we left the EU, others that new opportunities would be opened up. Most seem to arrive at conclusions which support their own pre-conceptions and biases. It's usually best, as far as possible, to do your own research and make up your own minds.

The main thing to remember is that overseas trade figures, and future trade projections for the UK whether in or out of the EU, is but one of the factors involved in deciding your referendum vote, and probably not a major one. Issues such as sovereignty, freedom to control our own borders, and losing our national identity as we become citizens of an undemocratic and corrupt European super-state (among others) may be even more important considerations.

[Jerry]

The main thing to remember is that overseas trade figures, and future trade projections for the UK whether in or out of the EU, is but one of the factors involved in deciding your referendum vote, and probably not a major one. Issues such as sovereignty, freedom to control our own borders, and losing our national identity as we become citizens of an undemocratic and corrupt European super-state (among others) may be even more important considerations.

Are you retired Gullscorer?

Personally speaking the trade issue is by far the most important issue. The possibility of losing my livelihood is what concerns me.

Until I can get some more concrete information I am still undecided on how to vote.

I will discuss the possible ramifications with my American bosses next week.

[PhilGull]

Some statistics here:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/ ... s/OTS.aspx
http://www.tutor2u.net/_legacy/blog/fil ... ith_EU.pdf
https://data.gov.uk/dataset/uk_overseas ... statistics

Some researchers claim that our overseas trade would be disadvantaged if we left the EU, others that new opportunities would be opened up. Most seem to arrive at conclusions which support their own pre-conceptions and biases. It's usually best, as far as possible, to do your own research and make up your own minds.

The main thing to remember is that overseas trade figures, and future trade projections for the UK whether in or out of the EU, is but one of the factors involved in deciding your referendum vote, and probably not a major one. Issues such as sovereignty, freedom to control our own borders, and losing our national identity as we become citizens of an undemocratic and corrupt European super-state (among others) may be even more important considerations.

Well when you present those 'issues' as facts then of course it would be obvious for everyone to vote to leave. But they aren't fact, they are your opinion.
I am getting so annoyed with people on both sides presenting their options as facts and then projecting them on to everyone else as if the whole world agrees with these obvious 'truths'.

[Gullscorer]

Jerry, whether one is retired or working, this referendum concerns the future, even the survival, of our nation, and is too important for considerations such as ‘what is best for me?’ Better to ask ‘what is best for our country?’. Unfortunately, most people will take the former approach.

PhilGull, those issues were not presented as facts, they are issues to be debated, though obviously people will have their own opinions about them. (Issue: a topic of interest or discussion).

Facts? Here are a few:

1. For the past couple of decades auditors have refused to sign off the EU’s accounts:
This from 2007: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7092102.stm
This from 2013: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-row.html

2. Corruption is rife across the EU, which regards itself as squeaky-clean and shifts responsibility on to national governments to fight corruption. But who fights corruption in the institution of the EU itself?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -year.html
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/wh ... dex_en.htm

3. As for democracy, it’s a fact that only one part of the EU is directly elected and they can only debate laws proposed by the European Commission, a body who are appointed not elected, and which issues 'directives' which override national laws. This means there is no democratic control within the EU itself. These particular articles are opinions, but based on facts; you may find them interesting:
https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/article ... ratic.html
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/european-pa ... atic-joke/

I found these links in the space of a few minutes. Those who make the effort to carry out their own research may find further facts (and opinions) to support (or oppose) their own initial stance.

[Jerry]

Jerry, whether one is retired or working, this referendum concerns the future, even the survival, of our nation, and is too important for considerations such as ‘what is best for me?’ Better to ask ‘what is best for our country?’.

I agree with you there Gullscorer. I happen to think that any economic effects of leaving the EU are more important than the other issues you highlighted, whereas it seems that you think the opposite.

[Gullscorer]

I agree with you there Gullscorer. I happen to think that any economic effects of leaving the EU are more important than the other issues you highlighted, whereas it seems that you think the opposite.

That's fair enough Jerry. Everyone will have their own opinions as to which factors are more important, or whether all aspects should be given equal consideration. Hopefully, people will make such considerations in relation to the country as a whole, rather than simply themselves.

[Orange Gull]

Regarding the trade deficit with the EU. Does anyone know the breakdown per country?. Bearing in mind we are going to have to negotiate trade deals with EU countries individually we need to know the numbers per country to make a decision on this particular aspect. This is the most frustrating thing from both sides - all of the 'facts' are too vague!

Just a quick point but if we were to leave, we would not negotiate trade deals with every single EU member state individually. The Commission handles trade policy on behalf of the member states so the British government would deal with the Commission itself, not any single governments.

[PhilGull]

Ah, a fellow democrat. Good. So I assume you will also be campaigning for democracy in the UK if we vote to leave the EU?

If we are to leave then it will be more important than ever to to make sure we have a properly elected 1st AND 2nd chamber of government and that we remove the monarch from having any control of anything.

[Jerry]

Ah, a fellow democrat. Good. So I assume you will also be campaigning for democracy in the UK if we vote to leave the EU?

If we are to leave then it will be more important than ever to to make sure we have a properly elected 1st AND 2nd chamber of government and that we remove the monarch from having any control of anything.

And ditch the "first past the post" system which disenfranchises huge swathes of the electorate.

[Gullscorer]

In praise of Nigel: http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/kath ... lying-low/
The EU is like the Titanic: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... -jump-off/
Downing Street pressurised military: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... etter.html

[Glostergull]

And what power do the ROYAL FAMILY have then Phill. they handed over control many years ago. and I would much rather have the Royals than some lame expensive president. who costs far more to keep than any royal family

[Scott Brehaut]

Rather some "lame expensive" president that can be voted in, than a monarchy that remains unelected....

[Gullscorer]

As if the monarchy has any political power..

[Scott Brehaut]

It has tons, you just never hear of it.