Fan behaviour to cost next season

standupsitdown · Post by **standupsitdown** » 23 Apr 2016, 20:18

I didn't see any trouble at Bromley but even if there was it is no justification for police needing to attend home matches. The police have the power to decide that they are needed (and they usually won't attend with fewer than six officers) but then the club have to pay. This needs to be challenged both by the club and supporters.

rooster · Post by **rooster** » 23 Apr 2016, 20:23

Is that another way of saying a nice bit of overtime for the local police?
Well I suppose it depends on whether having your day off cancelled/shift changed or forced to stay on to watch Torquay is your 'thing'
So the fee given to TUFC will be the cost price of all the resources required and nothing extra on top?
Its not just Officer pay, its the planning, additional transport, backroom staff, reallocation of resources, radio channels and so on. Not even the additional resources should there be arrests, interviews custody centres, file preparation, court expenses etc etc etc.

Yes its expensive but thats because its an unknown cost, the point I was making was believe me the Police don't create incidents to increase income, adding a football match to deal with is the last thing they would want to do.........

standupsitdown · Post by **standupsitdown** » 23 Apr 2016, 20:33

So where's a proper justification for the need to attend home games?
A few lads getting a bit excited at a crucial away match is no justification at all.

rooster · Post by **rooster** » 23 Apr 2016, 20:42

To know that you would have to see all the official reports including the other incidents mentioned in the club statement, I can't comment as i haven't witnessed any incidents, you would need to get the facts from those that have to make a balanced decision..........apart from that it hasn't been confirmed that it will happen just that its a consideration? maybe an opportunity for people to consider their actions......

Post by **Gulliball** » 23 Apr 2016, 20:50

Is policing the public not the reason why the police exist? I don't see why football clubs should have to pay for the costs of police officers being present, any more than the victim of a burglary should have to pay for the police to come and investigate it. Do the English Defence League get billed for a police presence at their demonstrations? Do political parties get billed for policing election campaigns? Do Wetherspoons get a bill for every Saturday night down at the harbour? If the police decide they need a presence in a particular area, that's their job and are funded to do this, but I don't see why the cost should be charged to the venue they go to, especially when it's forced upon them.

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 23 Apr 2016, 20:52

standupsitdown wrote:I didn't see any trouble at Bromley but even if there was it is no justification for police needing to attend home matches. The police have the power to decide that they are needed (and they usually won't attend with fewer than six officers) but then the club have to pay. This needs to be challenged both by the club and supporters.

That hits the nail on the head. This isn't a dig at the police, and certainly not a dig at individual coppers who have a bloody hard job. It is actually a concern over a process that looks remarkably like the ability to write blank cheques paid up by somebody else. I can't think of very many organisations who can dictate to others that they HAVE to buy their services at a price that includes significant overhead recovery.

The point about the absurdity of trying to determine policing needs at Plainmoor based on a couple of incidents of reported incidents of alleged problems at AWAY games is also well made. When was the last time we saw anything that resembled trouble at Plainmoor? The Bristol Rovers game in 2014 is the last one that I recall, and that was a couple of incidents of handbags caused by Rovers fans who were standing/sitting amongst the Torquay fans. We see far, far, far worse trouble around Torquay Harbour every week.

standupsitdown · Post by **standupsitdown** » 23 Apr 2016, 22:08

rooster wrote:To know that you would have to see all the official reports including the other incidents mentioned in the club statement, I can't comment as i haven't witnessed any incidents, you would need to get the facts from those that have to make a balanced decision..........apart from that it hasn't been confirmed that it will happen just that its a consideration? maybe an opportunity for people to consider their actions......

But it isn't a balanced decision - not where football is concerned. Football is policed on the principle that every possibility of conflict must be stopped - too often, especially at higher levels, every football match is seen as a potential riot. Furthermore the police & CPS work on the basis that football supporters should be prosecuted and banning orders sought for every alleged offence. If the same criteria were used in our towns & cities every Saturday night the police, their cells and the courts would be overrun. Common sense is needed with football fans treated as supporters and not potential criminals.

There have been no reports of trouble at Plainmoor since the Bristol Rovers game in 2014, and that was minor incidents related to away fans in home areas. Minor problems were reported at an away game (Basingstoke?) and again at Bromley - although so far none of the 526 of us who were there seem to recall seeing any problems. Some Premier League games are now played without police in the ground. It seems that the case for police officers needing to attend matches at Plainmoor is somewhat weak.

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 23 Apr 2016, 22:19

I stand on the Pop Side and I haven't seen any incidents this season that would warrant police action. The stewards seem to have done their supervising without a 'heavy handed' approach, so full marks to them. On this evidence, police presence would be a crass overkill and as somone posted, a cynical ploy to boost funding in the light of Government cuts. Leave crowd control to the stewards - they are now doing it sensibly and effectively.

wivelgull · Post by **wivelgull** » 24 Apr 2016, 10:12

In attending games at Plainmoor for 51 years (always in the pop. side) I never, ever saw any trouble (I wasn't at the infamous Wolves match); it strikes me that this is a storm in a teacup.

Post by **Dave** » 24 Apr 2016, 10:36

This is what happened at Bury v Millwall yesterday, and if you let the video play through other examples of potential and serious disorder.

This is the type of behaviour that would justify additional police presence. The point I made from the start and it seems that many others agree, when have we seen behaviour like this at Plainmoor over the last 15 years ? We haven't is the answer.

20 over excitable and belligerent kids who quit frankly are not capable of serious disorder despite how they shout is no reason to bring extra police in, as said above, the stewards have coped easily and have policed the ground very well this season. Again, despite the worthy views of rooster I maintain my view, if the police are pushing for extra presence next season, they're trying to screw money out of our club.

The behaviour of all Torquay United fans at the game yesterday was impeccable as always, and why the police were filming a section of the popside god only knows.

Campaign #overkill

gullintwoplaces · Post by **gullintwoplaces** » 24 Apr 2016, 12:29

Yesterday's madness of course involved Millwall. They have a lunatic element far bigger than any other team in the UK. I was at the Bristol Rovers v Millwall game in 1979 (I think) when one of their fans tried to attack Rovers fans on his own, ran across the pitch during the game with his fists in the air and jumped into the Tote End. I imagine he is in Broadmoor by now. He appeared in the TV in a documentary later, Harry the Dog I believe. We have nothing like that at all, and if the police are claiming we do then they need to think again.

Alpine Joe · Post by **Alpine Joe** » 24 Apr 2016, 12:41

The Trust haven't been mincing their words in recent months. Hopefully we'll hear them speak out loud and clear on this issue shortly.

chardie · Post by **chardie** » 24 Apr 2016, 12:49

gullintwoplaces wrote:

Yesterday's madness of course involved Millwall. They have a lunatic element far bigger than any other team in the UK. I was at the Bristol Rovers v Millwall game in 1979 (I think) when one of their fans tried to attack Rovers fans on his own, ran across the pitch during the game with his fists in the air and jumped into the Tote End. I imagine he is in Broadmoor by now. He appeared in the TV in a documentary later, Harry the Dog I believe. We have nothing like that at all, and if the police are claiming we do then they need to think again.

Not Broadmoor, Battersea..

Foxhole · Post by **Foxhole** » 24 Apr 2016, 13:46

As a recently retired police officer I can assure you that the Police are only able to recover costs for staffing on the footprint of the ground. They will not be able to recover costs for additional resources outside the ground eg extra control room staff, additional patrols around the ground or in the town. It is not a way of generating additional revenue. In terms of local staff- the vast majority of officers would no doubt prefer to spend one of their very few weekends off with their family rather than having to work additional tours on a late shift.

If you are really interested in why the charging is allowed and what can be charged for I suggest you Google Search Paying The Bill 2 which is the Government Guidelines

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 24 Apr 2016, 18:07

Foxhole wrote:As a recently retired police officer I can assure you that the Police are only able to recover costs for staffing on the footprint of the ground. They will not be able to recover costs for additional resources outside the ground eg extra control room staff, additional patrols around the ground or in the town. It is not a way of generating additional revenue. In terms of local staff- the vast majority of officers would no doubt prefer to spend one of their very few weekends off with their family rather than having to work additional tours on a late shift.

If you are really interested in why the charging is allowed and what can be charged for I suggest you Google Search Paying The Bill 2 which is the Government Guidelines

Thanks for details about the funding. Are we being naive or something, but as a Gulls fan, have you seen any incidents at Plainmoor during the last couple of seasons that warrant the threat of extra police presence? I stand on the halfway line on the Pop side and haven't seen anything at all to cause concern. As I posted above, the stewards are perfectly able to handle any over exuberance. I hadn't realised that a section of the crowd were being filmed yesterday. Who made that decision? To my mind, that simply provokes unrest.

Torquay United Fans Forum