Guardian Article On Torquay

[Soupdragon]

How would their business plan even work in that case? - considering they've gone on record stating that they need the Plainmoor freehold to help fund their development at the Willows. Are you suggesting that the Council will sell them land elsewhere to develop in order to fund the new stadium? That seems rather strange given what we know about GI's modus operandi and the problem of getting any deal like that passed in Torbay.

Good grief, I'm not suggesting anything!

I'm not aware of GI ever stating that they need the freehold of Plainmoor to 'fund' anything ... isn't that what people have been claiming rather than GI stating it? My recollection of the Osborne interview was that he wanted the freehold of Plainmoor in order to justify - in a business sense - spending any money on the facilities there (my words: I can't possibly sit through that 35 minutes again just to repeat his precise phrasing ... wrist, rusty knife and all that). Happy to be proved wrong.

I repeat on this site the things I've heard so that, between us all on here, we can keep abreast of developments, ideas and possibilities, the better to hopefully protect our club.

There's no problem getting 'deals' passed in Torbay. Stranger things have happened. For example:

- Just how much did Brent pay for Oldway? That's right: nothing.
- The council 'lent' a million and a half quid to Sutton Seeds to save just 20 jobs. Nothing against Sutton Seeds or its employees, but, really?
- There have been millions of quid of council taxpayers' money wasted (imo) on 'job creation schemes' that have resulted in tens rather than the promised thousands of jobs - and they're mostly part time, mostly self-employed. Not real salaries that can keep and feed a family.

They're just a few bloody odd - to me - decisions that Torbay Council and their wholly-owned subsidiary, the Torbay 'Development' Agency have made in recent years, so who's to say they won't give GI the land at, say, the Willows, and then gift them a few million taxpayers' quid to build something on the promise of, oh, I don't know, say, 40 jobs.

And, just to keep everyone up to date, I understand that public land adjacent to South Devon College has been given to the college for development, and all easements and covenants on the land have been lifted. Another Bay example where covenants have meant nothing.

[Southampton Gull]

Sue, I really appreciate the helpful insight you give us regarding the council. It's an area I know nothing about and I'm sure there are many more like myself who are grateful for the information you pass on.

[merse btpir]

I'm not aware of GI ever stating that they need the freehold of Plainmoor to 'fund' anything ... isn't that what people have been claiming rather than GI stating it? My recollection of the Osborne interview was that he wanted the freehold of Plainmoor in order to justify - in a business sense - spending any money on the facilities there (my words: I can't possibly sit through that 35 minutes again just to repeat his precise phrasing ... wrist, rusty knife and all that). Happy to be proved wrong.

I don't think you are wrong at all and it is an argument I heard used to knock back plans that were presented to the board of Tony Boyce when they ran the club during my tenure on the commercial staff: 1974-83.

In those days it was a proposal to develop the 'Social Club' corner of the ground building an 'L' shaped stand and corporate/social facility with first floor viewing lounge as there were no restrictions on watching football from licensed premises at the time and the only people willing to inject capital into the project wanted the freehold as security against their investment. So I see where Clarke Osborne is coming from but at the same time this is Clarke Osborne we are talking about and even today we have Glostergull taking the time and trouble exactly what this guy's track record is with stadium projects.

I would suggest that only at Poole has he delivered as a leaseholder on land that is still held by the local authority as freeholders and which he sub-lets to the speedway set up. A fine new stand and associated spectator comforts were delivered by GI but at the expense of the Poole Town Football Club being evicted; so we can add them to the trail of football destruction he has wrought in line with sending Bristol Rovers to an exile in Bath; Bristol greyhounds to Swindon and also the little discussed on here episode with the rape and pillage at Edgar Street Hereford.

Andrew's (Glostergull) advice re the character assassination I have received from both the Torquay United OS and the Herald Express are taken on board by this 'less than diplomatic' character and I won't be playing their game by engaging in tit for tat with them.

and he is right when he advises not to engage in exchanges of abuse with them but concentrate on 'punching for points' and I am of the same school of thought as soupdragon and that is that the Mayor has yet to make his decision and that GI could well be looking to acquire a freehold elsewhere in their designs of development in Torquay.

Like southamptongull I have had the same 'nod and a wink' and from very likely the same source as Dave that the Mayor HAS made up his mind and gone for offering up the freehold; but I honestly believe that this rumour is being put about by someone who would have us believe they are on our side when in fact they are not.

Beware the Trojan Horse!

[ManxGull]

bit of random question but did any of the local papers at where gis been before ever report on them and there past? im trying to work out if theres a pattern

[Southampton Gull]

Andrew (Glostergull) would know more about that I'd imagine.

[Southampton Gull]

Like southamptongull I have had the same 'nod and a wink' and from very likely the same source as Dave that the Mayor HAS made up his mind and gone for offering up the freehold; but I honestly believe that this rumour is being put about by someone who would have us believe they are on our side when in fact they are not.

Beware the Trojan Horse!

I'm not so sure this one is wide of the mark. We've had denials from different people as to whether GI have even spoken to them about it yet GI maintain they have. Didn't the Mayor say he'd had no contact with the owners of Torquay United? I find that very hard to believe. I hope I'm totally wrong on this one.

[ManxGull]

Andrew (Glostergull) would know more about that I'd imagine.

Fair enough bud was having a lets say debate( on facebook about the herald and there silence and started thinking about it

[merse btpir]

In short ManxGull the local media only react when the forums have forced them to.

If we still lived in the old world where they were comfortable and they were 'king' ; Gaming International would be swinging their wrecking ball without a word being said.

[Glostergull]

Sadly the reporting of the Rovers situation although covered by the press at the time fell a little short of the mark. but it wasn't the total silence that we have had from the Herald. one thing for sure. You won't find much from google searches. there is more on the fire than on the eviction

Two other facts to think of in the Bristol Situation. Rovers were tenants on a site which had no covenants on it and the council couldn't do anything to object to development . The other thing was one director was only too keen on grabbing the cheque for £280,000 which they had to have for leaving as compensation for loss of security. I thought about it at the time and was of the opinion it was silence money really. That director left very soon after. he wasn't that interested in Rovers and there were times when asked if he was going to the game when he said, "no.I can't be bothered." if Rovers fans had known about it at the time he would have been hounded out.

the other thing I remember was that Radio Bristol reported quite a lot about it and they wouldn't be silenced. Both BBC and ITV also got in on the act. I am wondering if that has happened in Devon. I have my doubts. as I don't general watch TV not even on computer I don't get to see what is reported. If you searched Swindon newspapers you won't find anything about Abbey Stadium. there are reports on the speedway and greyhounds. But nothing on the proposed Stadium since last November when they said work had started on the new stadium. which you would expect to have further reports as that is an exciting development. nope you guessed, not a sausage. and the work doesn't seem to have carried on at all. so it stalled. I am proposing to try and get down there to see whats going on but its a site miles out of town and hard to get to. If any fan has a car and wants to help with an inspection I would be grateful.

In respect of Alans statement I wasn't getting at him personally so much as some of the other posters on here and Facebook who would show anger in ways which would do us no good at all. We might be angry at the scenario facing us but i would assert that we have to show some mark of control on how we vent forth. e.g.. its all very well making a protest at the last game. but if it vents into a slanging off match with foul language at the directors box with kids present then the whole process goes down the drain. you all know what I mean. I know this is a very emotive argument. but remember how Ghandi engaged with the British over India. he behaved in such a way that the argument had a force which otherwise would have been dismissed.

in addition I think that including extra evidence in the Guardian report from other well known posters like me and the guy who followed Reading would have undone much of the rant in the OS afterward as they wouldn't have expected someone from all that way back to have had previous experience of their tactics. If asked I would have only been too pleased to add something. but we were never asked. I would also urge the fan in Poole to do some digging as well. we need all the evidence we can find. I suspect we will find a lot of evidence of proposals put forward. studies done and plans drawn up and some even submitted. but that is all i would expect to find. i doubt even a shovel has been stuck in anger.

I am also going to do some fact finding at Hereford. that is one long sordid story and it needs sorting out to see just what Osbornes involvement was.
If I can I will also see if i can get hold of the other director at Rovers at the time.

I was going on a fact finding mission to FGR to investigate how their community project is run that goes into hundreds of schools to get kids involved. but I am of the opinion that its best put on ice until we have such security that we know where we stand.

Lastly I would urge all fans to bombard the council with mails to make them aware how much we feel about our club. But please make it clean. nothing like a foul mouthed rant to turn them against us.

and a quick P.S. I saw a title about Trojan horse. Does he really ride up to Plainmoor on a horse. IF so respect to you Trojan that would be a great PR coup.

[ManxGull]

thanks for answering my question merse and glostergull and very interesting and informative

[samuel]

I have been told that it is UNLIKELY the council will get rid of the freehold to GI (from an excellent source). However, although involved in property and planning myself, I have struggled to work out what the GI game plan is. I have juggled all the scenarios, spoken to several people in the know. In the offices at Plainmoor I have seen concept drawings of the new stadium, all purpose training pitch, hotel and retail outlets at The Willows. Looks lovely on paper but can only come to fruition as a result of a combination of shenanigans of immense proportions and deals so convoluted with so many uncertainties it would be a massive gamble. Assurances would have to be given by Torbay Council who are duty bound to get the highest price for their assets.

Problem with all of this is the secrecy and the fans being kept in the dark by the previous board, the mayor, the council - everyone. The confidentiality clause was an affront to the paying fan. Is there some missive - on any of the forums - where has someone actually worked out what would happen if GI actually did nothing. No investment in the team, just maintain the buildings, pay off the staff. Torquay United would fold. Then what, the freehold would be worth much less wouldn't it. The covenant would be diluted. I just can't work it out what they are up to. I would be interested to know whether Mr. Osbourne is a mason, didnt Mr. Oliver and his cohorts have a problem with this organisation a few years back - The Nolan Report recommendations not being adhered to. All this crap about whether meetings took place or not - officially or unofficially - between GI and the council is a smokescreen. 'What if' scenarios were discussed, probably in detail. As a fan of 55 years I just want someone to be open and truthful with me.

Incidentally, I believe the Torbay Tory MP is on side. With the election coming up - if he wasn't, I would give Mr. Sanders another go, a true fan.

[merse btpir]

Two other facts to think of in the Bristol Situation. Rovers were tenants on a site which had no covenants on it and the council couldn't do anything to object to development . The other thing was one director was only too keen on grabbing the cheque for £280,000 which they had to have for leaving as compensation for loss of security. I thought about it at the time and was of the opinion it was silence money really. That director left very soon after. he wasn't that interested in Rovers and there were times when asked if he was going to the game when he said, "no.I can't be bothered." if Rovers fans had known about it at the time he would have been hounded out.

As an expansion on what Andrew has told you, here is the history and background as to how ville Stadium first came into ownership of Bristol Stadium Ltd and it goes back ten years before when Clarke Osborne was even born!

Eastville was Initially leased to Bristol Rovers, and then purchased in 1921 by Chairman George Humphreys for £2,500, financial difficulties meant that it was sold by Bristol Rovers to the Bristol Greyhound company on 3rd March 1940 for £12,000, although the deal was done on 26th April 1939. Apparently the chairman did this without close consultation with his colleagues and at the next board meeting nine days later there were some stormy scenes when it became clear that the other directors wanted to withdraw the offer. The greyhound company would not let Rovers back out and negotiations dragged on until March 1940 when Rovers, with liabilities of £20k, had no option and sold the stadium for £12k with a 21 year lease to permit football to continue.

This was a move that would ultimately prove to be disastrous for the Pirates. However, the ground saw what many consider the heyday of the Gas fortunes, as the teams of the mid 50's, and later the 73-74 promotion team brought success to the Club. At the Stadium's height, crowds way beyond any that can be imagined today flocked to the ground, and urged on by the Tote End, Eastville was a great place to watch football.

In 1980, the fire that Andrew refers to destroyed the South Stand and enclosure, and many fans say the atmosphere in the ground was never the same afterwards.

The owners cashed in the insurance payout and didn't use it to rebuild but instigated rent increases; and dwindling attendances were making it increasingly difficult for the Club to function and make ends meet, and these factors eventually took their toll, and the decision had to be taken to move from the ground.

Football ceased at Eastville in 1986 and soon afterwards , the Tote End was bulldozed, and greyhound racing ended in 1997 with the site being sold for development by the now re-named owners BS Group. Plans were announced for a new Bristol greyhound stadium but never came to fruition with the entire greyhound operation moving to sister track Swindon. The site became an IKEA superstore.

The Stadium was demolished to make way for an Ikea store in October 1998, having been left increasingly neglected, and hosting only Greyhound races once the football club had left. Rovers then spent a decade at Twerton Park in Bath before returning to the city to play at the Memorial Stadium where they remain to this day.

[lucy6lucy]

TQ1 has been silent

[merse btpir]

TQ1 has been silent

More apt to say 'TQ_1 has been silenced'

[CraigUnder]

Merse, if it came to be that the council don't sell the freehold to GI.. what would be GI's plan B? Because everyone thinks all they want is the freehold, what if the don't get it at all? Do like you say and dwindle down investment etc till there is nothing left or accept the fact and sell up?

Interesting times ahead..