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bengull wrote:Ok, theoretically we play your way for the next 3 matches, go cavalier and get carved apart at the back and lose all 3. What then?

We can all discuss what we like to see happen and what we believe would make a difference as much as we like, doesn't mean for one second it would make a difference, it's all conjecture.

I will repeat, If we had taken our chances against Northampton, Argyle and Burton, having created them in an attacking manner we probably wouldn't be in the position we are now.

So would you bring in another attacker ( that is my preferred option ), would you play more of Yeoman or are you happy with the way things are and just hope and pray that we can start finding the net more often with the chances we have? I personally would have someone else in instead of Bodin as i think Bodin offers us nothing and at least then we can bring in someone else from the squad we have who i believe would score more goals and be more effective. I'm not saying you are wrong Ben but just what out of the scenarios i have mentioned would see a better goal return because our inability to finish teams off is a frequent and alarming problem.

At the risk of repeating myself Zebroski would be the answer to our prayers given that as well as being able to play out wide he can also cover up front as well if required.
If we were to sign him the following line up would surely give us enough home wins to keep us up.

Poke

Leadbitter - Downes - Saah - Nicholson

Zebroski-Craig-Mansell-Bodin

Howe-Jarvis

I have included Leadbitter as he is far more attacking than Oastler.

Yes we might concede goals with that line up but we would score plenty thats for certain. The likes of Easton and Lathrope basically offer us nothing really.

I would stick with Bodin on the left because he does have ability (anyone seeing the Rochdale and Cheltenham home games would vouch for that)

I don't know what the answer is, this is my point: none of us do, we can guess, but it might not turn to fruition. I think that Howe and Jarvis showed they can be really threatening in tandem yesterday but as you suggested during the match we suffer from lack of bodies in the box when on the attack. Putting the ball in the back of the net is not something that can be taught and applied we just have to trust our marksmen to deliver, Jarvis is showing signs of being a real poacher in and around the box and we know Rene can, on his day, score something out of nothing. Sadly it just isn't quite happening for him at the moment. We need more contributions from the support players, last season Manse and Nico for example had scored 5 each already but because we have not been able to play at anywhere near the level of last year's consistency and understanding they have just 3 between them.

If we can just get a settled team and system, and move the ball around like we do in large periods yesterday the goals will come. With Yeoman, Bodin, Thompson all on the bench, and Macklin nearing a return, I think there are enough options available if Plan A isn't working but in principle I agree perhaps another body is needed, but only if he improves our options. For me we need the right person for the job, not the first available.

brucie wrote:I would stick with Bodin on the left because he does have ability (anyone seeing the Rochdale and Cheltenham home games would vouch for that)

I have never disputed that, we need to see it though is my argument. :~D

bengull wrote:Ok, theoretically we play your way for the next 3 matches, go cavalier and get carved apart at the back and lose all 3. What then?

We can all discuss what we like to see happen and what we believe would make a difference as much as we like, doesn't mean for one second it would make a difference, it's all conjecture.

I will repeat, If we had taken our chancesagainst Northampton, Argyle and Burton, having created them in an attacking manner we probably wouldn't be in the position we are now.

The fact of the matter is that we didn't/haven't taken our chances, we don't score enough goals and we need to be more attacking and stop worrying about how defensive we are. Of course it's an expression of opinion, but it's more than ML has got at the moment, Lingy has only a Plan A and it's not good enough.

Yes, and my point is that we created and missed those chances in spite of our supposed 'defensive' set up. You can have six men forward all you want but if your strikers don't convert the chances you make then it makes no difference. If we go gung-ho against City we will more than likely get battered, we have to play to our strengths and catch them on the counter attack. We should go into the game with the intention of winning (be madness to suggest Ling is doing otherwise) but also with the intention of not losing. I would suggest Tuesday is a game we can't afford to lose, I think we will in it, but I would also settle for 0-0.

I am not sure on what basis you think we will beat Exeter. Ling just seems to have a healthy obsession with winning games 1-0. He cannot seem to grasp that last year we had better defensive players and the team was generally more solid.
You say that the goals will come? - but really will they with Craig and Stevens playing out wide and the likes of Lathrope and Easton in midfield.

brucie wrote:I am not sure on what basis you think we will beat Exeter. Ling just seems to have a healthy obsession with winning games 1-0. He cannot seem to grasp that last year we had better defensive players and the team was generally more solid.
You say that the goals will come? - but really will they with Craig and Stevens playing out wide and the likes of Lathrope and Easton in midfield.

I can't agree with that Brucie. Obviously we had Nico and Oastler who have not been as good as last season for whatever reason and we still had Saah. Ellis went but Downes is equally as good and Pokey is proving to be a life saver in many games. He'll never be as good as Bobby but my God he has kept us from the wrong end of some horrendous scorelines so far this season.

The second part is correct, we were more solid last season but i think whenever we play with either Stevens or Bodin or both, they may create a chance or two for others and chip in with a few goals ( nowhere near enough from either this season ) but they totally disappear from the game for long periods and we just can't afford to carry players. Stevens yesterday had returned to his old ways of jockeying an opposition player probably to make it look like he is making an effort but it is unacceptable and pointless as when he does it he is so far away from the player that all the opponent does is have loads of space to whack it upfield or just choose a pass to a team mate. Danny, if you are bothering expending energy to actually get into a position to put pressure on the defender then do it. Put pressure on him by way of a push or an attempt at a tackle. Don't get there and then fidget on the spot a yard away like a rabid lemur! Get your foot in man for Christ's sake!!

People could say that we started with both Bodin and Stevens in the win against Gillingham but i argue that we conceded and the goals we scored were a dead ball free kick from Craig and a 25 yarder from Nico. Where was the input in terms of setting up goals or scoring goals from them both then? We got lucky with two shots on another day wouldn't have registered. I just think that our midfield doesn't retain the ball as well as last season and that is due in part to players like Danny panicking in possession and losing it or not making use of the space he often has to run into. He will run for a bit towrds the touchline, get closed down, panic a bit and then come back on himself and lay it back. With Danny it is always the simplest option that he takes unless he is forced into an option he has no choice but to go for like the goal he made for Jarvis at home to Northampton. Craigs ball across was so precise and hit with momentum that all Danny had to do was knock it forward to the bye line and try and get a ball across. He did this well to be honest and Jarvo scored.

When he has to make a choice he invariably chooses the easier option. Maybe he doesn't want to lose the ball as he will have to try and get it back by jockeying for the best part of half an hour i don't know but if we are to get dragged into a scrap then we can use Danny from the bench and Bodin we can't risk using at all as he has offered us very little injuries aside this season and we neeed strong heads and battlers. We have Thommo, Howe, Jarvo, Mackers, Yeoman and Danny from the bench if things get tight. I don't think Bodin is the answer for a battle in all honesty as the frequency with which he loses the ball it will put pressure on the defence as it has done at times this season.

I think we are all scratching our heads at the minute as to just what the hell is going on and how we can best address the issues of conceding all the time, not scoring more when we are top
and who is best to play where. We've just got to hope that Ling now has some answers and plans to arrest this gradual slide. I wouldn't usually be too concerned but it's the fact that most of the teams near the bottom have installed new managers and are picking up results at a rate of knots. It would only take defeats v Exeter and Chesterfield ( who are also picking up ) and we could be just off the bottom two come the Exeter away game and i wouldn't want to rely on getting a win there either. Plus we have Cheltenham away after that who are hard to beat and have a real goal threat and it suddenly will become clear that things could start looking pretty grim pretty quickly.

Once you are down the bottom and all confidence has been extinguished then it is a mountain to climb to get back above water again.

I like to think that we will beat Exeter and then Chesterfield ( as i hate them ) and we will be just off the play off spots but this all highlights what an incredibl tight league this really is and any sort of run good or bad can see you rise or fall at the drop of a hat. I just hope there is someone ready to pick it up should we continue our bad run.

Ha ha Andy, I thought of you the very moment I read that sentence!

Not sure that we created a wealth of opportunities against Northampton and Plymouth. The only decent chance I recall from the Cobblers match was that embarrassing miss by Mansell from 6 yards.

Tuesday night could be horrendous - I may back a repeat of the infamous 1-4.

brucie wrote:I am not sure on what basis you think we will beat Exeter. Ling just seems to have a healthy obsession with winning games 1-0. He cannot seem to grasp that last year we had better defensive players and the team was generally more solid.
You say that the goals will come? - but really will they with Craig and Stevens playing out wide and the likes of Lathrope and Easton in midfield.

I guess I am talking more in hope than expectation given our current form, however I always approach matches with a positive outlook, generally I find if you assume we're going to lose you may as well not bother attending.

I have already stated that if we play like we did against Burton the goals will come, we just need a bit of luck infront of goal. With a passionate home crowd willing the boys on we might just get that extra 5% of them that we need.

As regards to Craig, I have already discussed my reservations of having him on the right wing, but he is worth including there albeit drastically out of position because his delivery is so good that you would always fancy a goal from Downes or Saah perhaps on the back of a decent setpiece. As previously suggested I do not believe he has the maturity defensively to play in the centre alongside Mansell, I think a Lathrope/Easton is VITAL to our system as they will fill in when the full-backs pour forward, or fill in for the Centrebacks at setpieces, Craig couldn't do that because he would be doing the kicking. We have never needed a goal from Lathrope/Easton or included them on a regular basis for their goalscoring prowess, it will be a bonus if it occurs. Noone had a go at Makelele for his poor goalscoring record.

As regards to Danny, no getting away from the fact he was poor on Saturday, however if he starts a game in a positive manner he can normally put a full-back on the back foot early on. If he fails to have any effect on the match atleast we have the options on the bench to change things around.

Same XI as Saturday for me.

Can some of the numerous people who said in this thread that they want Ling out, make a proper statement how is a sacking of the coach in the middle of a season, going to benefit our financial situation, or the thing that these people are more concerned - our points??.
I happen to come from a country, where for the 15 years of following football, I can think of just one case where there has been a coach for more than 2 years. 99% of them stay for about 3-4-5 months and teams change a minimum of 2 coaches per season. It is not because our coaching academy is top class..it is the opposite..the football is run by a bunch of idiots (the presidents of the clubs) who do not know a thing about football and get pissed of after 3-4 bad results or even displays. As a result we have managed to place just one team in the CL for all those years and the goal difference of that team was 1-20, and the level of football has been shockingly bad even though presidents spend quite a lot of money on new players/coaches. You can figure out by yourselves which country is that.
From my point of view Craig does not seem to be the best option for the wing but even there he can have the chance work his magic every now and again. Bengull posted a really good comment (page 14)..a comment with more depth than the usual comments by the moaners - "Ling out, I would play this player and leave this one out, and play this system rather than that system". I am not even going to go and discuss in depth the system or the players on the pitch (even though I myself would not choose the same squad as Lingy does) since I do not happen to be a coach and I don't think I have enough expertise to give advices to somebody who has 5 promotions as a player and one as a coach, even though I myself also have a football past/present having spent the last 15 years playing football at amateur level, (almost every day when I have time or I am not injured). And yet there are bunch of people who have probably never played in their lives, do not know the qualities of our players in depth, the moment condition of the individual players and do not have any expertise at all but are cocky enough to come here say that and that has to be done. It is in hard times like these that real fans are really distinguished from the fake ones. I just feel sad that we have a good coach who is 100% dedicated to the club, not looking at Torquay as a step to his future career and yet there are still people who think that we can actually find somebody better at this particular time. You moaners are probably not aware that whoever comes now would not be aware of the qualities of the players, would not know them individually, and in my opinion THE SACKING of Ling would be the thing that would put us in relegation battle if any at all. The man needs time and more importantly the support of the fans both in forums like these and on the stands. He has proven that he is able to provide more than once and has done some great things for the present and future of our club. Even finishing in mid-table should never be a reason to moan. It is not like we have wasted thousands of pounds on new players and now we must definitely deliver at any case and get a promotion. It have been very miserable few months in terms of results for myself and for all Torquay fans, but I really think we should stay positive and good results will come. And this is not based on hope, it is based on the previous work from Ling and more importantly on the fact that we outplayed and defeated the best team in the league, and we almost defeated Port Vale. We are capable of beating any team in the league on our day and I think bad luck has been the major reason for the results in recent games (5 consecutive games we have conceded after the 84th minute, including 3 90th minute goals). People who went to Burton yesterday would be the first to agree with me on that having seen how we outplay them and still lose.
One more thing...If Craig on the wing is the biggest problem, what does this have to do with late concessions in games? If it was not for these few goals we would have been a point or two from the automatic places (11 as of now, which is not that big of a gap).

By the way, is Matt banned?

bengull wrote:As regards to Craig, I have already discussed my reservations of having him on the right wing, but he is worth including there albeit drastically out of position because his delivery is so good that you would always fancy a goal from Downes or Saah perhaps on the back of a decent setpiece.

Are only wingers allowed to take free-kicks and corners then?!

Cracking post there MH91 , although i have never said Ling out ( apart from that p*ss take thread of course! :Oops: ) i have also never been convinced by his appointment and i still have serious reservations but i strongly feel that if he gets us to play like we did at Burton a lot of the time then i would be perfectly happy with him staying at Torquay. I liked the game and i liked the performance and if i'd paid £20 to get in ( it was £14 actually but whose counting ) then i would be more than happy to have paid it. If we are capable of playing in that manner then why have we been so dull for most of the season? I can totally understand that managers go through sticky periods in a season and it's about keeping the faith and offering support in the hope they will get it right. I accept that and often i feel guilty having posted something about Martin when on reflection it might be a bit unfair but i don't accept this 'support at all costs' ideology.

Martin is doing a great job at Torquay overall but that does not mean he should not be accountable for errors or consistent failings in his methods or management style. We as fans can be understanding to a point and then if our concerns are not addressed or acknowledged then obviously the more reactive and impatient amongst us are are going to become frustrated and disillusioned. It doesn't make us idiots or that we lack a brain or understanding though. Some people see the bigger picture, some see the smaller picture and some see no picture at all and so it's all subjective. If someone wants Ling out and and has a genuine reason such as the football has been generally atrocious then that's fine, if someone wants Ling out because they think we should be in the top 3 then that's fine, if someone wants him out because they are sick of hearing his unambitious comments then that's fine and if someone wants Ling out because we are near the bottom of the table then that's fine too. On the contrary, if someone is more than happy with Ling and the job he is doing and wishes to support him to the hilt then that is fine too. What i'm saying is we all have different needs as fans, mine is to see decent football on a regular basis, others may want Torquay to get promotion at all costs which risks our financial security, others may be happy with awful displays each week but so long as we're at the top it doesn't matter. None of us is wrong.

What i totally disagree with you MH91 is when you say that Ling isn't using this job as a stepping stone to better things. If he were offered the managers job at Preston for example tomorrow on monre cash we wouldn't see him for dust. Gone are the days of Matt Le Tissier where players and managers forsake their careers for the sake of happiness and stability and loyalty.

Great post though!