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Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 02 Sep 2012, 22:27
by Dave
ferrarilover wrote:
Hahaha, you know, I genuinely cannot imagine anything more boring than supporting Manchester City.
Matt.
Going to Amsterdam, and finding everyones on strike..?
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 02 Sep 2012, 23:28
by Dave
All joking aside, I don't think this thread or any replies on it are questioning the clubs board and the good job they are doing, the manager or the players as a whole, just the defensive tatics mainly away from home, I think there is no doubt we all agree the club is in a very healthy state.
Alltough the club I believe is not now moving to Forchess Cross, and has gone back to the plans to level seal hayne, and I know from people involved at W.B.B FC based at Addbrook farm, the club has looked at that ground as a possilbe training base for when work is carried out at Seal Hayne, however W.B.B don't own the land I believe.
I don't think it is a case of going gung ho, and nobodys suggesting that, as stated many time I can't go to away matchs as much as I would like, I have started to dread listening to away commontries however, of course its correct, training during the week is partly formulated towards how your going to play on the saturday, and sometimes the game plan doesn't work, its how you handle it from there, Martin Ling is the man under pressure I understand that, and hes the one who has to decide whether to stick or twist.
For me when the game 25minutes in and settled down and your team is coming under increasing pressure, stating the obvious I know but thats when your likely to conceed or end up with a Vale type mistake, and to me its about a plan b and atleast trying to regain some control on the match.
I was allways brought up in football to believe you play to your own strenghts not the others teams, there lies a point which I might have missed, the tatics which Lingy uses in his opinion may well be us playing to our strenghts, in which case the teams we have played so far, with the players we have out and unbeaten, Martin Ling is doing one hell of a job.Heck ive confused my self now
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 07:18
by Trojan 67
42 League games to play, 44 more points to gain to ensure safety.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 10:06
by brucie
But really strength in depth - there isn't any. Yes its fantastic to see the youngsters doing well but really we are a striker and a centre half short . If Howe gets injured or sent off (which seems imminent the way he is going) then we basically have nothing up front. Jarvis is looking less of an option than Atieno at the moment. He looks less likely to find the net as well.
Its a similar situation at centre half. Our first choice replacement is Cruise and basically he looks worse than useless.
Ling needs to shore this up with a loanee or two and quick.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 10:34
by yellowmonkey
brucie wrote:But really strength in depth - there isn't any. Yes its fantastic to see the youngsters doing well but really we are a striker and a centre half short . If Howe gets injured or sent off (which seems imminent the way he is going) then we basically have nothing up front. Jarvis is looking less of an option than Atieno at the moment. He looks less likely to find the net as well.
Its a similar situation at centre half. Our first choice replacement is Cruise and basically he looks worse than useless.
Ling needs to shore this up with a loanee or two and quick.
This is my sentiment as well we need two strikers up front not just a stroppy donkey, last season Mansell scored the same amount of goals as Howe who is a striker but 2 of Howe's goals came from penalties so Mansell had the better scoring. We need someone pacy and not a lumbering hulk who continually tries to go around the keeper instead of just knocking it in.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 10:40
by Plymouth Gull
Disagree entirely. Rene is quality but his temperament is his awful. Once he gets the aggressive streak out of his game, or at least calms it down, he'll move up the ladder.
I do agree we need a back up though - Jarvis has never done it for me.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 10:53
by JamieE
Rene is a class above, he is perfect for the way we play and we are lucky to have him.
Blooding in the youngsters is great but we aren't going to get away with playing like we did against Port Vale every Saturday. Our central midfield looked very weak, if Easton and Lathrope are missing we can't afford to have Nathan Craig in the holding role, it's like putting a first year Eunan O'Kane in there. I think Tom Cruise would have been a better option.
I'm not going to write Jarvis off completely just yet because of exactly what this thread is talking about. He is coming on with 10 minutes left and in all four games we have been under the cosh at the end of the game. He is not going to be getting any sort of service or support and he's not the sort of guy to play the lone striker role.
Our away tactics do invite pressure. Danny Stevens improved last year, you feel he has got better with experience and his return will be a boost for games where we are under pressure like Saturday where he may be able to help us get the ball and have some joy. Get him in the team away from home and leave Thompson and Macklin to terrorise teams at home. But I do think we need another striker, has Taiwo got a club?
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 11:17
by exilegull
Rene is quality. He is quicker than he looks as evidenced against Rochdale where he used his strength to win the ball on the half way line and outpaced the defence. As for always trying to go around the keeper - did you see his finish when he got the penalty box? His finishing is excellent.
He needs to work on his temperament but aggression is part of his game and he's not that bad - his booking against Vale was for kicking the ball away as opposed to anything physical.
I agree with Jamie that judging Jarvis on the last couple of appearances is a bit harsh - in the second half versus Vale Rene was already far too isolated when he came on. Having said that I don't think Jarvis is the man for the lone striker role. Last season he did well as one of the wide players in the front 3, or I think he is more suited to a 4-4-2. If we're fighting for a game and Rene needs to come off after 70 minutes I'd be more tempted to put someone really pacy up top (Bodin probably) - I know he wouldn't win much long but it would likely make opposing defenders drop deeper and create a bit more space to allow us to break quickly with the ball on the floor - and I think Jarvis could then find a bit of space and be more effective.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 11:42
by AustrianAndyGull
Good points there Steve. I too think Rene has that extra bit of quality that is needed at times, yes he is cumbersome and not very mobile but when he has the ball running towards goal or in and around the penalty area there's not many others in this division i would rather have instead. I do think that he needs to curb his temper though AND chip in with a few more goals than he does already.
You're right about the pace angle off the bench too. I'm not sure if i would start Bodin, i'd be tempted like you say to bring him on as an impact sub because he does do a Danny Stevens a lot and drifts in and out of games. Having him on for 25 minutes or so would be a great asset for us. Putting on Jarvis is a mistake away from home as our style of play and the fact that we are usually under the cosh doesn't suit him and still renders us blunt upfrount. Sticking Bodin on at Vale for example with 20 to go and we might have had more joy.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 12:06
by Dave
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, Rene Howe a stroppy Donkey..really, with out his goals and performances so far this season we would be bottom of the league, agreed he is class.
He is a big powerfull man, who puts himself about on the pitch, by the very nature of the way he plays ( which I wouldn't change for the world) He tends to wind up defenders and get noticed by the ref, his strenght his his biggest weapon if hes not allowed to use it, he just aswell give up.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 14:21
by Kernowgull
Whilst Renes return of 14 wasnt prolific last season, he was(admitteldy partly through his own fault) out for a fair chunk of the season and, I bet he got a fair few assists. He is certainly not greedy, which may effect his goal tally, but doesnt harm the teams in any way, see Morris goal on Sat. Howe could have shot, and may have scored, but Morris was better placed and the assist was perfect.
Ive seen some lumbering, cumbersome donkeys in my time, and they dont bring the ball down, flick to team mates, run with the ball and finish like Howe. Criticising for going round the keeper too much is ridiculous. Its one of the many ways he can attempt to score, and because he got one wrong against Rochdale (but still scored two great finishes) he's a donkey. Van Persie missed a penalty yesterday, what a donkey!
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 14:44
by numpte
Criticism for the sake of it I say to some of the posts on here. Who cares what if our formation isn't expansive away from home. We've just had two tricky away games and come away unbeaten, the latter with 3 kids playing.
Our formation is set up for Howe to be up front on his own. Jarvis isn't that type of player, he works better from what Ive seen in a 4-4-2 as we saw at Oxford and Hereford last season and i think some comments are unwarranted. I agree with above, we're lucky to have Howe and some commenting on his temperament are too young , dont remember or didnt support then. Davie Caldwell was the best Centre Forward I've ever seen in a Gulls shirt and you were worrying everytime he stepped on the pitch if he was going to nut someone but boy was he exciting to watch. Howe is an angel.
More of the same at the away days I'm planning at Rotheram, Wycombe and Brissol please.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 16:54
by Dave
numpte wrote:Criticism for the sake of it I say to some of the posts on here. Who cares what if our formation isn't expansive away from home. We've just had two tricky away games and come away unbeaten, the latter with 3 kids playing.
Our formation is set up for Howe to be up front on his own. Jarvis isn't that type of player, he works better from what Ive seen in a 4-4-2 as we saw at Oxford and Hereford last season and i think some comments are unwarranted. I agree with above, we're lucky to have Howe and some commenting on his temperament are too young , dont remember or didnt support then. Davie Caldwell was the best Centre Forward I've ever seen in a Gulls shirt and you were worrying everytime he stepped on the pitch if he was going to nut someone but boy was he exciting to watch. Howe is an angel.
More of the same at the away days I'm planning at Rotheram, Wycombe and Brissol please.
I am not saying you aimed that at me however I was the one who actually used the word "expansive" So let me respond, I personaly have never, ever leveled criticism for the sake of it and hope those who have followed my post over the last few seasons will see that, if I like something I will say it, if I don't like something I will say that aswell.
My posts may not allways be correct, or even spelt right, they are however my genuine held belief, I am not from the football manager generation either, Sadly only got to 4 away games last seasons heard the rest on the radio, I have no problem what so ever seeing us play a containing game away from home, where I have a problem as a fan is when we are conceeding possession 30%-70% which happened a number of times last season with no kids playing and at times has happened in both away matchs this season, when that situation happens as a football team your in big trouble, and then are relying on your defence and keeper to perform above and beyond their best and not make a mistake.
All I am saying is when we are being dominated like we have been last season in a few games and this season, often the team sit deeper and deeper, something that Lee Mansell admitted recently, and when that happens its often the case as we all know the gap between midfield and the forwards becomes to wide, the team are forced to play it longer and longer, if your front man doesn't hold it or the midfield get up quick enough, the possession keeps coming back at you, and back at you.
You can either stick and hope for the best, or can twist push an extra body forward and try and pass your way back into the game, I am with out doubt delighted with Martin Ling as our manager, my criticism is, in the number games away and a few at home where I felt we conceeded to much possession our tendancy is to stick every time, on few occasions we got away with it, and other times we deserved to however you don't allways.
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 16:59
by hector
bengull wrote:Yesterday for me was shrouded in extenuating circumstances. At no point for the rest of the season will we start with 3 youngsters with one professional appearance between them, not to mention the least experienced 7 man bench in the history of TUFC. To that extent yesterday's point should be celebrated and not sniffed at. In normal circumstances you could replace the pedestian Bodin and Thompson with Macklin and Stevens and their fresh legs and fresh minds would be far more fruitful than Leadbitter or Cruise who were the only viable options open to the manager at the time.
A series of unfortunate events have left us with Lathrope and Macklin crocked only 10 days ago, Easton pull out on the day of the match and Downes foolishly ruled himself out of yesterday's game too. This would test the limits of any lower league squad. Lingy (as he did for all last season) remained loyal to those he had 'in the building' and we came away with a very creditable point in the face of a complete onslaught for the entire second half. That experience will be vital to the youngsters we were forced to put our trust in.
There is no way we should expect Vale to roll over and die for us just because our manager reckons we will be near the top of the league all year. They were completely ordinary in the first half and Adams obviously read them the riot act at half time and they came out to give their fans something to shout about.They were excellent in the second half at everything but their finishing. I defy many teams to withstand the bombardment that they threw at us, it was a performance full of character.
2 points from 2 very loseable away games represents good value to me. Infact the game i am most fustrated about is Cheltenham where we played expansively, very expansively infact, but squandered too many chances to finish the game off. I don't think we would be having this conversation if we had beat CTFC 4-1 like we should have done, and had 8 points to our credit instead of 6. As our car loving friend said, 'win your home games, don't lose your away games', well we haven't lost an away game yet. Also we are unbeaten.
There is a very fine balance between playing expansively and trying to win the match, and making sure you do not lose that same match . Indeed the blueprint for away games should be making sure you aren't losing after 70 minutes, and then see if you can go on and win in the last 20. With the options available to us on the day it was always going to be a tough ask against Vale, but put back into the squad the 5 we are currently missing and we may have had a better chance.
I have no problem with the cautious approach away from home, I would much prefer to travel home with a well earned point than going home with nothing because we tried to outscore the opponents. A team who is well drilled, disciplined and organised will gain more points over the season than a team that plays with reckless abandon. We are extremely close to being a very good League two side, the players who came in yesterday showed me they are more than handy replacements for the first team players we are missing. But not all 5 in the team at the same time.
Once we get all our missing bodies back and get into our stride it will all come together like it did late October last year. I am adamant Lingy's comments referenced in the OP will ring true. We are looking a lot better and stronger than we did at this stage last season.
Excellent post
Re: Something Odd but Something Familiar
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 21:36
by brucie
Yes I to would not question Howe - he is quality at this level. The problem lies though if Howe is missing. Love or hate Atieno I thought he did an excellent job of being the loan striker when Howe was out. Jarvis does not look capable of filling that role at all.
In all fairness he may be better suited to playing off a target man but he isn't much cop at playing out wide either, so where he is going to fit in.
Same with Cruise - he is a centre half who isn't a centre half. He can't play at full back judging by his Rochdale cameo and he clearly isn't a left winger.
Its difficult to see where these players are going to fit in.
Noone is disputing that the two away draws have been very good points but we will get found out very soon because our current line up isn't anywhere strong enough.
In fact we probably havn't fielded such a weak team as we did against Port Vale since the Chris Roberts era.