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Agree with the majority of ferrarilover's post and also much of Fonda's OP (welcome back) but the one point I would make is our players definitely aren't average. They're worse than that.

royalgull wrote:Agree with the majority of ferrarilover's post and also much of Fonda's OP (welcome back) but the one point I would make is our players definitely aren't average. They're worse than that.

Is this just a quip, or do you really think that?!

I would say Downes, Saah, Craig, Bodin and Howe have the ability to play in League One. They may not all be performing anywhere near their best, but our strongest XI is nowhere near below average.

And I'm not being funny, but you are one of Martin Rice's staunchest supporters. I have no problem with Rice, but if you're levelling 'below average' at most of our players, I dread to think what most would use to describe him.

Fonda wrote:I just don't rate him. When i compare him to some of the others we've had here in recent times - Benyon, Zeroski, Kee, Tomlin, Rendell he looks amateur.

You mean Bucks team? Agreed.

Chris B wrote: I would say Downes, Saah, Craig, Bodin and Howe have the ability to play in League One. They may not all be performing anywhere near their best, but our strongest XI is nowhere near below average.

And I'm not being funny, but you are one of Martin Rice's staunchest supporters. I have no problem with Rice, but if you're levelling 'below average' at most of our players, I dread to think what most would use to describe him.

Ricey's a mate of mine so I'm a bit biased. Last week he was a hero, this week western league, the joys of being a keeper. He's not played first team football for 2 years, has come into a poor side with no confidence and having seen the goals my view echo's that of ferrarilover's. The defending on all of them was shocking and none were blatantly his fault, i've spoken with him and he's a bit disappointed with a couple of them as you would be. I could pick out a few goals minimum conceeded this year that have cost us points that Poke has been directly at fault for in comparsion. The only way to find out about someone is to play them over an extended period of time and see, not saying Ricey is absolutely the answer nor beyond criticism but he gets a raw deal on here. The point was made before the Oxford game, if a goal goes in it would be his fault regardless. It was extended a week but we got it. Nicholson's joke defending was forgotten because the ball went through his legs, as if that immediately is the fault of the keeper.

i would say Downes and Saah are two decent enough CB's for this league and Howe could play League 1 easily that's it. the notion that Craig after half a season where he's been hit and miss and Bodin whose been a complete disaster are league 1 standard is well, ludicrous. They might get there in time but as we stand right now not a chance. Downes was available for free in the summer if he was far too good for this league why is he here? I like Downes for what it's worth but he is a League 2 defender.

Our strongest XI is below average because in the system we play we have 2 sometimes 3 players in that entire side that are forward thinking attacking players. We are a dull defensive team whose defensive qualities have been exposed in recent weeks who don't create anything nor do we have the players to create anything. Our midfield is the worst it's been since the relegation season in terms of quality and that also goes for the striking department. I am a massive fan of Howe but the list made by Fonda of Bucks former forwards reitirates the point just how far in terms of quality we've sunk in the last 2 years. I would sooner have Tyrone thompson back instead of Easton nevermind the likes of O'Kane or Wroe (who you lot didn't like, hows he getting on btw?) Mansell is a trier and Lathrope is well, Lathrope. Never really notice anything he does, which is fine as long as he's got good players around him, he doesn't and now is looking bang average like the rest of our team.

royalgull wrote: The only way to find out about someone is to play them over an extended period of time and see, not saying Ricey is absolutely the answer nor beyond criticism but he gets a raw deal on here.

I would say this applies to someone like Bodin at least as much as it does Rice. He didn't choose to be a £70k signing, and yet at 20 years old, just twenty games into his first season as a regular, he's almost being written off by some.

On Downes, Saah, Craig, Bodin and Howe, my argument isn't that they're too good for us, or that League One clubs will be fighting to sign them in January (Howe aside!), but that they're capable of stepping up with the ability they have. The link I'm making is having the ability to move up divisions shows we have players with the quality you insist we're devoid of. As for Wroe, I'm pleased his career's going positively, but his deteriorating performances near the end of his spell with us showed he was clearly unhappy at the club and living in Devon.

We are a dull defensive team whose defensive qualities have been exposed in recent weeks who don't create anything nor do we have the players to create anything.

We are dull and defensive right now, but with Macklin in full flow on one wing and Bodin on the other with Howe in the middle we were scintillating at home to Rochdale. They really couldn't live with us as an attacking threat. Ling needs to be bolder and adopt his system so Thompson, Stevens, Jarvis et al can flourish. I also just happen to think the right attacking loan signing could give the team and crowd a big lift, too.

I am a massive fan of Howe but the list made by Fonda of Bucks former forwards reitirates the point just how far in terms of quality we've sunk in the last 2 years.

We can keep reeling off names of former striking options like Jack, Roberts, McFarlane in 97/98 or Graham, Gritton, Kuffour in 03/04 or the ones you've mentioned, and I keep highlighting how unwisely Ling used his limited budget. But the lamentable fact is we obviously no longer have the budget to have a Kee or Zebroski or Rendell in reserve. Playing against a Southend side who throw Corr and Eastwood on for 25 and 6 minute cameo respectively and happily leave Benyon in Essex just shows the relative resources other clubs have compared to us.

royalgull wrote: Ricey's a mate of mine so I'm a bit biased. Last week he was a hero, this week western league, the joys of being a keeper. He's not played first team football for 2 years, has come into a poor side with no confidence and having seen the goals my view echo's that of ferrarilover's. The defending on all of them was shocking and none were blatantly his fault, i've spoken with him and he's a bit disappointed with a couple of them as you would be. I could pick out a few goals minimum conceeded this year that have cost us points that Poke has been directly at fault for in comparsion. The only way to find out about someone is to play them over an extended period of time and see, not saying Ricey is absolutely the answer nor beyond criticism but he gets a raw deal on here. The point was made before the Oxford game, if a goal goes in it would be his fault regardless. It was extended a week but we got it. Nicholson's joke defending was forgotten because the ball went through his legs, as if that immediately is the fault of the keeper.

i would say Downes and Saah are two decent enough CB's for this league and Howe could play League 1 easily that's it. the notion that Craig after half a season where he's been hit and miss and Bodin whose been a complete disaster are league 1 standard is well, ludicrous. They might get there in time but as we stand right now not a chance. Downes was available for free in the summer if he was far too good for this league why is he here? I like Downes for what it's worth but he is a League 2 defender.

Our strongest XI is below average because in the system we play we have 2 sometimes 3 players in that entire side that are forward thinking attacking players. We are a dull defensive team whose defensive qualities have been exposed in recent weeks who don't create anything nor do we have the players to create anything. Our midfield is the worst it's been since the relegation season in terms of quality and that also goes for the striking department. I am a massive fan of Howe but the list made by Fonda of Bucks former forwards reitirates the point just how far in terms of quality we've sunk in the last 2 years. I would sooner have Tyrone thompson back instead of Easton nevermind the likes of O'Kane or Wroe (who you lot didn't like, hows he getting on btw?) Mansell is a trier and Lathrope is well, Lathrope. Never really notice anything he does, which is fine as long as he's got good players around him, he doesn't and now is looking bang average like the rest of our team.

fair points royal.
im with you re ricey - the "joys" of being a goalie. been there and done that as a few have on here. you dont need to have a slate loose to be one, but it does help.
to me hes a model pro - and thats the word that is essential "pro" there are a few players at TUFC and lots of other places that offer far less in commitment than he does. as far as im concerned and in my opinion, everyone else can naff off with their "expert" opinions about his goalkeeping.

as for mr wroe, I've always thought he was a class act...........

............................how can he be? He played for Barnsley.

austrianandygull wrote:............................how can he be? He played for Barnsley.

he'd be to good for them now! =D

Whether you consider Ricey good enough or not (i don't) is largely irrelevant. The point is, he's not improved dramatically in recent times, and he's not been thought good enough previously. So does that mean our standards are dropping?

A look at the forward line would suggest so. As Royal says, the front line throughout Bucks tenure had quality. It has to be acknowldeged that Bucks was undoubtedly working with a much bigger budget, but Ling's use of whatever budget he had has been inneffective.

As for Bodin and Craig, I do believe they both possess decent quality. Neither would look out of place in League 1. But they both currently look out of place in League 2 because due to the tactics employed by the manager, their strengths are not being utilised.

Despite all what I have said about Ricey, I do indeed feel sorry for him, he will never be able to win at our club and clearly does not have the full support of sizable part of our fan base, trust me that could be a problem going forward.

For me it really never was about the 4 goals that went in, now having watched them back I can clearly see he was not fully to blame for any of them however as a pro keeper and he knows it himself he could and should done better on some of them.

I have been lucky enough to have met 5 different keeper coachs and watchced 4 of them (3 former pros) working with young keepers , the one thing they all agree on is mentality and they constantly drum it to the keepers they work with if you conceed an early goal or make a mistake you have to stay mentaly strong , as there is the rest of the game to play, Brucie called it right for me, Ricey let an early on through his legs and seemed to crumble a pro keeper has to have the ability to recover from that.

As said it wasn't just about the goals, Southend scored a 5th goal that was ruled out for offside had that goal been allowed to stand fingers would have pointed at Ricey for that goal aswell, as he stayed at home on his line, there also was a save he made towards the end of the first half where he did a flat handed parry and ball went right back into the danger area, had a Southend player followed the shot in it could well have ended up in the back of our net , one of the keeper coachs I know would make one of the 14-18 year old group he works with do 20 press ups if they had done that in one of his training sessions.

And finaly there also was a shot in the first half for all the world it looked like he was going dive straight over the top of, the gasp in the section where I stand was clear, as a fair few of us thought the same.

I didn't cover Ricey in the match day thread as I had fully intended not to share my opions I seem to have some what let myself down on that, so I will leave it now by saying with out doubt he is a true clubman as far as TUFC is concerned and what ever happens at the end the season whether he stays or moves on I will allways wish him well.

It is hard to recover from spinal surgery.

Rehabilitation is a long and hard road. Just ask Sophie Webster.

We are on that road....

Chris B wrote:The Lubos Kubik, whose only win as Torquay manager came in the FA Cup at Martin Ling's Leyton Orient, with Brian Saah and Craig Easton lining up for the O's!

True story - I covered a US national team game against Spain a while back - I was there early and the media guy asked if there was any of the coaching staff I wanted to speak to. I said "yes, please, Lubos Kubik" (Kubik is an assistant coach) ...the guy was surprised so he asked why. When I replied I wanted to ask him about his time in Torquay he look confused and went away. Came back 15 minutes later saying "He's only taking questions about his role with the US team".

Which I suppose is reasonable but I prefer to think that he was terrified of a getting a grilling about Chris Roberts.