Never Give Up.

[tomogull]

I have given up. There are plenty of games that we should have picked points up in and didn't. Morecambe,Mansfield,Hartlepool,Exeter are games at home we really could have and should have won really.
Its fair to say we have had alot of decisions go against us as well. Certainly a ludicrous refereeing decision cost us the game against Northampton.
We were probably denied a point yesterday by the denial of a clear cut penalty.
They say that things even themselves up over a season but this time its bad luck all the way,to compound our bad form. We can't score goals, our confidence is shot to pieces,and we are relegated with a quarter of a season to go.
Really if we were a horse we would have been shot by now.
We will still be playing games when we are already relegated which is awful.
The season cannot finish quick enoug - it has been an unmitigated shambles and disaster from start to finish.

Added to Brucie's post, the players, unsurprisingly I suppose, don't look as if they're enjoying playing and there doesn't seem to be much team spirit. Mansell had a right go at Pearce yesterday when Pearce didn't go for a suicidal pass from him (Mansell) and Tonge swore loud and clear - not sure why, probably because nobody was making themself available for a pass.

[kevgull]

Added to Brucie's post, the players, unsurprisingly I suppose, don't look as if they're enjoying playing and there doesn't seem to be much team spirit. Mansell had a right go at Pearce yesterday when Pearce didn't go for a suicidal pass from him (Mansell) and Tonge swore loud and clear - not sure why, probably because nobody was making themself available for a pass.

Our current form will see us relegated with 6 or 7 games to go. Possibly a modern day record?

[DanTUFC]

As much as it pains me to say it, I can't see any way of us getting out of this, the Accrington game was effectively the game that sent us down. However this whole mess stems from having 19 year old loanees coming to play upfront for us because we don't have any strikers capable of scoring 10+ goals every season.

The loan players don't care about the club enough to fight for survival, this is why we struggle, they know at the end of he loan they all have clubs to go back to, plus some of them can't score to save their lives.

[hector]

As much as it pains me to say it, I can't see any way of us getting out of this, the Accrington game was effectively the game that sent us down. However this whole mess stems from having 19 year old loanees coming to play upfront for us because we don't have any strikers capable of scoring 10+ goals every season.

The loan players don't care about the club enough to fight for survival, this is why we struggle, they know at the end of he loan they all have clubs to go back to, plus some of them can't score to save their lives.

Yes, Alan Knill's policy of thinking he could get by with a forward line of Hawley & Benyon, plus whatever Championship youth team player was up for it, was a disaster.

To be honest, he should have stuck with Callum Ball a bit longer. He had the best pedigree in terms of the amount of games he had played.

Seems strange to remember those early games when the team couldn't string a pass together, looked disjointed and disinterested and Knill saying judge the team after ten games...well look what his shambolic creation is doing after 34 games. Wonderful. Thanks, Alan!

[stefano]

Wonderful. Thanks, Alan!

... and I would endorse Hector's heartfelt thanks Mr Knill. Thanks for keeping us up last year and of course you would have achieved it a second time round this season had you been given the chance. Being sacked after picking up 7 points from your last 5 games! I could well understand how you may feel about that and probably chuckle a little about your replacement getting 1 point from his last 6 games. You are though too much of a gentleman to publicly acknowledge that. Well done though in what you have achieved at Northampton. For a manager as crap as you are sometimes portrayed by a serial boring poster and with hundreds of professional football people out of work, you were immediately head hunted by a club in more trouble than ourselves. You have turned around 10 points on us in a few weeks. In fact when you left we were 1 point from safety and I felt confident you would get us out of and keep us out of the bottom two. 1 point .... that was all it was when your replacement came in. Now? You may not have realised. I don't suppose Northampton would bother looking so far behind them. But now we are 10 points from safety and effectively 11 because of our goal difference. What goes around comes around .... and you have Mr Knill every right to be having a little chuckle at our expense every Saturday evening .... all right thinking decent fans would say that .... I was just very surprised that Hector was praising you!!!

[Scott Brehaut]

Stefano, I like you as a poster and you often make good points, but you're living in a dream world if you think that Alan Knill was going to turn things around....we are going to be relegated this season because of Alan's incompetence as a manager - Hargreaves hasn't helped, yes, but we were as good as down anyway....a comedy of errors from so many people, players that either don't give a damn, or are not good enough to play anymore. No money to buy players (yet enough to pay off managers) did us too, but a win rate of 18% is relegation fodder.

I also don't buy the fact that he was going to get rid of Mansell either, which you have been hinting at. I can quite believe he was going to get rid of Nico, but that was clearly due to a falling out more than form (not that his form was great either - but then by all accounts Tom hasn't been amazing there either), but Knill had kept Lee in the team, and stuck by him as captain - doesn't seem to be the intentions of somebody about to move a player on.

[stefano]

Stefano, I like you as a poster and you often make good points, but you're living in a dream world if you think that Alan Knill was going to turn things around....we are going to be relegated this season because of Alan's incompetence as a manager - Hargreaves hasn't helped, yes, but we were as good as down anyway....a comedy of errors from so many people, players that either don't give a damn, or are not good enough to play anymore. No money to buy players (yet enough to pay off managers) did us too, but a win rate of 18% is relegation fodder.

I also don't buy the fact that he was going to get rid of Mansell either, which you have been hinting at. I can quite believe he was going to get rid of Nico, but that was clearly due to a falling out more than form (not that his form was great either - but then by all accounts Tom hasn't been amazing there either), but Knill had kept Lee in the team, and stuck by him as captain - doesn't seem to be the intentions of somebody about to move a player on.

Thanks Scott that's very kind of you. The Mansell thing was just wishful thinking on my part. Mr Knill had bombed Nico out and it was obvious to me that Mansell had not performed properly for us for about 3 years. As they apparently clean each others houses naked it made sense that they should move on together. Both have been great servants of the club, but there comes a time for every player when it is time to step down.

I have never said that Mr Knill would have kept us up as I don't know. 7 points from every 5 games which is what we got from his last 5 games with us would have kept us up. I have mentioned before that quite a lot of postings I have made recently have been a little tongue in cheek and because of irritation at the hounding of Mr Knill by some of our supporters which is behaviour I do not associate with our football club.

One particular poster, I won't name him but his house used to be on a television programme my kids watched, states time and time again that Knill (he refers to him like that which is disgraceful disrespect to a decent professional man) was taking us down for certain. No it was not certain. Possible yes. Probable even yes. But certain no. He goes on the basis that if you repeat something however inaccurate enough times then gradually everybody will believe it. Apparently it's an old trick used by school teachers.

He and others find facts difficult to deal with. Evidence. You and I Scott know quite a lot about that and know what will pass proper scrutiny. Some don't and think that posting something on a forum and stating it is a fact will actually make it a fact.

Anyway, looking forward to the Conference? I was working in Italy the last time around and remember sitting in the San Siro one midweek evening next to a Stevenage supporter showing more interest in the Conference scores on our mobiles than Inter v Roma in Serie A. This time I may have to actually watch a real Conference game!

Oh well .... che sera sera

[tomogull]

For a manager as crap as you are sometimes portrayed by a serial boring poster and with hundreds of professional football people out of work, you were immediately head hunted by a club in more trouble than ourselves. You have turned around 10 points on us in a few weeks. In fact when you left we were 1 point from safety and I felt confident you would get us out of and keep us out of the bottom two.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Chris Wilder is manager of Northampton and Alan Knill is his sidekick. Knill by his own admittance is happier as a coach than a manager. We won TWO games at home under Knill (admittedly, none since). We were NOT staying up if Knill had stayed. You quote his last five games but what about his last two games ? Defeats against Exeter and Argyle and not only defeats, but abysmal performances. Hargreaves was a gamble - unfortunately a gamble that has not paid off because of the utter mess he has inherited from Alan Knill. I really, really hope that if we go down (and it seems almost a certainty now) Northampton will come down with us. They are still six points adrift of safety with a goal difference nearly as bad as ours, so here's hoping !

[stefano]

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Chris Wilder is manager of Northampton and Alan Knill is his sidekick. Knill by his own admittance is happier as a coach than a manager. We won TWO games at home under Knill (admittedly, none since). We were NOT staying up if Knill had stayed. You quote his last five games but what about his last two games ? Defeats against Exeter and Argyle and not only defeats, but abysmal performances. Hargreaves was a gamble - unfortunately a gamble that has not paid off because of the utter mess he has inherited from Alan Knill. I really, really hope that if we go down (and it seems almost a certainty now) Northampton will come down with us. They are still six points adrift of safety with a goal difference nearly as bad as ours, so here's hoping !

No I didn't overlook it Tomo .... I just didn't mention it.

The defence are under no obligation to reveal facts that may be of benefit to the prosecution ... indeed they would be foolish to do so!

[SuperNickyWroe]

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Chris Wilder is manager of Northampton and Alan Knill is his sidekick. Knill by his own admittance is happier as a coach than a manager. We won TWO games at home under Knill (admittedly, none since). We were NOT staying up if Knill had stayed. You quote his last five games but what about his last two games ? Defeats against Exeter and Argyle and not only defeats, but abysmal performances. Hargreaves was a gamble - unfortunately a gamble that has not paid off because of the utter mess he has inherited from Alan Knill. I really, really hope that if we go down (and it seems almost a certainty now) Northampton will come down with us. They are still six points adrift of safety with a goal difference nearly as bad as ours, so here's hoping !

and there lies the problem.

we will never know now. one thing is for sure - CH is taking us down, just as I said. it was more than a gamble with CH - it was a disaster. and as has been said on other threads, CH has brough some bad players in on loan, when it was apparent that he had funds to bring in who he wanted. a player that joined and never played. and oh yes, who did he choose for one? oh yes, his old mate stevens.

so stefano is right.

i could have said that you were talking bo**ocks tomo, but i didnt want to sound as harsh as stefano's mate, Mr. House.

[hector]

... and I would endorse Hector's heartfelt thanks Mr Knill. Thanks for keeping us up last year and of course you would have achieved it a second time round this season had you been given the chance. Being sacked after picking up 7 points from your last 5 games! I could well understand how you may feel about that and probably chuckle a little about your replacement getting 1 point from his last 6 games. You are though too much of a gentleman to publicly acknowledge that. Well done though in what you have achieved at Northampton. For a manager as crap as you are sometimes portrayed by a serial boring poster and with hundreds of professional football people out of work, you were immediately head hunted by a club in more trouble than ourselves. You have turned around 10 points on us in a few weeks. In fact when you left we were 1 point from safety and I felt confident you would get us out of and keep us out of the bottom two. 1 point .... that was all it was when your replacement came in. Now? You may not have realised. I don't suppose Northampton would bother looking so far behind them. But now we are 10 points from safety and effectively 11 because of our goal difference. What goes around comes around .... and you have Mr Knill every right to be having a little chuckle at our expense every Saturday evening .... all right thinking decent fans would say that .... I was just very surprised that Hector was praising you!!!

The thing is, Stefano, if Knill was so good, why did he do so badly here? You talk as though 7 points out of 15 is amazing. Why not try 1 point out of his last possible 9.

And Northampton's turnaround? Is it not anything to do with Chris Wilder? A manager that actually does have a good record. You know, the one that actually picks the team, rather than the one who stands, leaning against the dugout, staring into space and collects the bibs after training.

You misguidedly suggest he saved us last season, when in fact we were nearer relegation at the end of the season, than when he started, and he actually left us in a worse position than what he found us in - and with his own team. He had more success when it came to working with Martin Ling's team, than he did his own.

Alan Knill's last three games in charge were insipid displays, culminating in the non-show up at Plymouth. Nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest we would be any better off with him still here, when it is because of him that we are fighting relegation anyway. Why on earth do you think we were in that position in the first place?

You keep spouting this ridiculous fact of his SEVEN (seven? as many as that? blimey, next Chelsea manager!) points from 15, because you choose to just look at his last 5 games, not 6, not 10, not 40, not his entire disastrous reign, no just 5 games...forgetting that, that sorry, pitiful return had 90% of fans wanting him gone.

Now, regardless of whether his successor - a rookie - is doing worse does not matter, in terms of the fact that Alan Knill was the manager who put us in this mess in the first place. His 18.52% win record hardly suggests someone who was about to turn it around.

[tomogull]

For a manager as crap as you are sometimes portrayed by a serial boring poster and with hundreds of professional football people out of work, you were immediately head hunted by a club in more trouble than ourselves. You have turned around 10 points on us in a few weeks. In fact when you left we were 1 point from safety and I felt confident you would get us out of and keep us out of the bottom two.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Chris Wilder is manager of Northampton and Alan Knill is his sidekick. Knill by his own admittance is happier as a coach than a manager. We won TWO games at home under Knill (admittedly, none since). We were NOT staying up if Knill had stayed. You quote his last five games but what about his last two games ? Defeats against Exeter and Argyle and not only defeats, but abysmal performances. Hargreaves was a gamble - unfortunately a gamble that has not paid off because of the utter mess he has inherited from Alan Knill. I really, really hope that if we go down (and it seems almost a certainty now) Northampton will come down with us. They are still six points adrift of safety with a goal difference nearly as bad as ours, so here's hoping ![/quote]

No I didn't overlook it Tomo .... I just didn't mention it.
The defence are under no obligation to reveal facts that may be of benefit to the prosecution ... indeed they would be foolish to do so! [/quote]

Ha - very good, Stefano. I'm with Hector on this one because I do not think we should have been a struggling side this season and I am angry and bitter about it. Knill assembled what looked like a decent squad but he failed miserably to mould them into a team and he failed miserably to bring in a striker (Hawley was a last minute, probably panic, signing who had been 'overlooked' all summer by every other manager). Added to this, for weeks he insisted on playing a two-man midfield (Harding and Mansell) which every one in the ground could see wasn't working. We were being overrun in midfield which put extra pressure on the defence. True, he was unlucky with two decent loan strikers he brought in - Paul McCallum and Marquis - picking up injuries and having to return to their home clubs. But confidence soon drained away and players form suffered. I think Bodin and Chappell, for example, are the type of players who play well in successful sides but soon lose confidence when things aren't going well.

Anyway, it's all history now. I read that you were living in Italy when we were last in the Conference. Lucky you - lovely country, lovely people - shame about the politicians !! Actually, I found Conference football more entertaining than expected. Apart from a few teams like Droylesden, the standard of football was on a par with most Div 2 sides. It is just the loss of status/dignity (?) of being a non-league side that wrankles.

[tomogull]

and there lies the problem.

we will never know now. one thing is for sure - CH is taking us down, just as I said. it was more than a gamble with CH - it was a disaster. and as has been said on other threads, CH has brough some bad players in on loan, when it was apparent that he had funds to bring in who he wanted. a player that joined and never played. and oh yes, who did he choose for one? oh yes, his old mate stevens.

so stefano is right. i could have said that you were talking bo**ocks tomo, but i didnt want to sound as harsh as stefano's mate, Mr. House.

Yes - you were against Hargreaves appointment right from the word go. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if we'd known after 9 games his record would be W2 D1 L6 we would have probably all agreed with you. I was lukewarm on the appointment - in our dire situation, I thought we needed someone with experience to get us out of the mire. But I thought his positive character and enthusiasm would inject a bit of passion into the players and I even thought we might start playing football on the ground, but neither has happened up to now. We're still lofting the ball up in the air to Hawley and Benyon and, surprise surprise, up against 7ft defenders, they aint winning much in the air.

There have been many examples of popular players returning as managers and it hasn't worked out - Kenny Dalglish and Alan Shearer spring to mind. And yes - I agree that the players he has brought to the club haven't exactly set the place on fire, but I'm not sure you're right in saying he had funds to bring in who he wanted.

We were told that there were several enquiries about the manager's job but never told who some of them were. It would have been interesting to know ..... Too late now, though.

[taxilady]

Keith Curle was mentioned ..........

[arcadia]

Yes - you were against Hargreaves appointment right from the word go. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if we'd known after 9 games his record would be W2 D1 L6 we would have probably all agreed with you. I was lukewarm on the appointment - in our dire situation, I thought we needed someone with experience to get us out of the mire. But I thought his positive character and enthusiasm would inject a bit of passion into the players and I even thought we might start playing football on the ground, but neither has happened up to now. We're still lofting the ball up in the air to Hawley and Benyon and, surprise surprise, up against 7ft defenders, they aint winning much in the air.

There have been many examples of popular players returning as managers and it hasn't worked out - Kenny Dalglish and Alan Shearer spring to mind. And yes - I agree that the players he has brought to the club haven't exactly set the place on fire, but I'm not sure you're right in saying he had funds to bring in who he wanted.

We were told that there were several enquiries about the manager's job but never told who some of them were. It would have been interesting to know ..... Too late now, though.

Lets be honest the board has taken us down if we don't start winning as it's not over until the --- ---- sings. Whoever took this club over were on a hiding to nothing as Knill ran it into the ground. New managers usually end up at struggling clubs and Torquays situation is no different. If Knill had signed a better striker with a bit of pace and played a better formation and tactics we would have more points on the board. The problem is if you've got a board who don't know what they are doing you end up with a manager commiting the club to players when he's clutching at staws as he could not get players to come here. That is why someone like Colin Lee as G.M. or D.O.F. is important.