The European Union: We're out...!!!

[Jerry]

On that 'Britain Stronger in Europe' newsletter: http://www.steven4brexit.uk/bses-lies.html
(Note that even the title is misleading and intended to confuse: they mean the EU, not Europe).

I don't have time to read through all of that now but just a quick glance at the first "lie" sums up the entire debate for me.

The pro EU chap says we will all be better off "due to lower prices" if we remain in.

Then the anti EU chap says we will be better off "through cheaper food bills" if we leave.

So two polar opposite claims, neither backed up with a shred of evidence.

What hope has the man in the street got of making an informed decision?

Incidentally, I do think the "Remain" campaign have made a tactical error by seemingly getting world leaders and their like to stick their oar in.

I have no strong opinion either way but statements from the French government immediately put my back up and that of other people I have spoken to. Keep your noses out and let us make our own decisions please!

[Gullscorer]

Some sense from Suzanne: http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/the- ... o-britain/

[chunkygull]

Added in 21 minutes 1 second:
Just been reading a hell of a lot of opinions on facebook on various pages most are in favour of leaving, when you read the many reasons why and coupled with your own opinions it is such an easy choice to vote ro leavem looking at it now, apart from fear of change I cannot see any good arguement to stay in. Some comments are very emotional and thought provoking, the facts are well put, people need to put their fears aside and look at it with an open mind.

This comment from a French citizen is getting a big reaction -

Ketan Naik To all British citizens,

Voters use your vote to leave. This a comment made from a person living in France. Please read the paragraph below.

In France, we had a referendum in 2005 on a European treaty, and the people have voted against the EU, with 55% of the voters.

This treaty has finally been ratified a few years later, but this time without any referendum, the people being considered as non qualified by our politician elites for those decisions.

It was 10 years ago.

Now, we have had 8 years of uninterrupted growth of the unemployment rate; we have to face a migrant crisis; we have seen the greek people being crushed; we are subject to an embargo from Russia which destroys the French agriculture; we have seen the European commission president explains there was no democracy against the EU; this year is the first year since decades where the life expectancy decreases in France; misery grows more and more...

If there is now a referendum on the EU in France, the people against the EU would win. You have the opportunity to do what we the French people has no right to do, you have a referendum. Do not miss this opportunity.

[Gullscorer]

The EU or the NHS? You can no longer have both:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... Union.html

[PhilGull]

Is it just me or is everyone else really annoying that like in elections the newspapers are all picking sides. Just one paper to say they dont know and actually present some facts rather than all the biased crap we see on both sides.

The EU or NHS? I call bullshit, just more fear-mongering. Both sides are at and it's really rather pathetic.

[Dave]

Is the demise of the British steel industry yet more evidence that Britain needs to leave the EU ?

Unless we've all been asleep recently, we all know the last remaining steel plants are now threat of closure with the loss of 15,000 jobs, and the reason cheap Chinese steel flooding onto the world markets.

The " in " campaign tell you with their version of fear, if we leave the EU our country will be less competitive and with in 24 hrs millions will lose their jobs, so lets have a look at the steel industry and what can be done to save it.

Personally I don't it matters whether you're on the right, centre or left of politics, most, myself included think the best, only way forward here is to renationalize the steel industry, but wait, no matter how Corbyn and the rest of us want that to happen, can the government actually do this ?

Renationalization for me is a no brainier, 15,000 no longer paying tax, and claiming state benefits, will cost the country more than the million pounds a day the industry is losing.

Well no it can't, why, because EU rules prevent this, EU rules restrict what member state governments can do in aiding stricken national industries, so our government will have to go to the EU commissioner and ask what we can do to save our own steel industry. I guess there's supposed to be a European solution found to a European problem, so why doesn't the EU step in and sort this, as it's not only our country effected by this.

The U.S.A I believe imposes 200% tariff on Chinese steel, the E.U imposes a 9-13 % tariff , so why doesn't the EU follow suit with the U.S.A, it could, but it won't, because it would then put at risk the massive amount of car production across the E.U.

For me we're less competitive in the E.U, leave and free our selves of the EU red tape, rules and regulations, our industry and business can compete on it's owns terms.

Vote leave.

[Alpine Joe]

I think the Government will probably try to ride this one out, and hope that within a week the loss of steel jobs will no longer be on the front pages and there'll be other things to talk about. Even today, with a little help from Ronnie Corbett, it's slipping down the page.

To put nationalisation in football terms, it would turn the British Government into Thea Bristow, while the steel workers would play the part of Mo Camara, Dale Tonge, and Ben Harding.


forevertufc

Renationalization for me is a no brainier, 15,000 no longer paying tax, and claiming state benefits, will cost the country more than the million pounds a day the industry is losing.

The Government/Taxpayer would be forking out the high wages to keep them employed as well as picking up the million pounds a day loss. A combined outlay well in access of the State benefits the Government would have to fork out.


Forever could well be right with what he tells us about the E.U not following suit with the USA on high tariffs. If the jobs you save in steel only result in job losses in the car industry etc, you've achieved nothing, other than to favour one set of workers and their jobs over another set.

Time will tell how successful Obama's high tariffs on imported steel prove to be, but when the Bush administration did something similar back in 2002 it lead to more redundancies in steel consuming industries than the total number of employees in steel production that it was designed to benefit.

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/blog/inte ... e?rq=steel

While I'm fully in agreement with Forever's 'Vote Leave' conclusion, I'd rather get big Government off our backs altogether, rather than just do away with the E.U layer of it.

[Gullscorer]

The Chinese have just increased their steel prices by 20-25%. Their steel is generally somewhat inferior to British and European steel. Which is why the Chinese use European steel to make their cars. European steel is stronger and lighter.

So the question which must be asked is: why are French and German and Dutch steelmakers weathering the storm while the British steel industry is in trouble? Part of the reason is that British politicians have made a difficult climate for our industry, with such things as 'green taxes', whilst the likes of France and Germany have put no hindrances in the way of their steelmakers.

There may well be a case for at least partial nationalisation or Government share ownership, at least on a temporary basis. But, whether or not nationalised, one of the problems our industries have always faced is interference by our politicians. Add to that all the rules imposed by the EU and our industry is the worst position to be able to compete.

Which is why we need to leave the EU (the EU is, in any event, doomed) and we also need common-sense politicians in government who take no account of ideologies, whether socialist or capitalist (and dare I also say feminist). Er, UKIP, perhaps?

'An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come.' Victor Hugo

[PhilGull]

Regardless of EU membership the British Government could work to save the British steel industry in the short-term by increasing tarifs on Chinese steel and providing subsidies - which despite what the anti-EU scaremongers say are perfectly legal under EU law and are provided by other EU Governments for their own industries. In the longer term it should be re-nationalised. It makes me so **** angry when all of our privatised industries are being run by nationaly owned companies from other countries.

[Dave]

The Government will not be able to do anything with out agreement from the relevant EU commissioner, as I said in my previous reply, it's all in the links.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consume ... id_en.html

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... nce_v2.pdf

And when we're talking about scaremongering, both sides are guilty, however the in campaign are 10 times worse than the out campaign, what's the latest effort we hear, if the country votes out England will be suspended from EURO 16, that one is just laughable.

After all if the country does vote out, both Wales and Northern Ireland will also be leaving the EU, so why won't they be suspended as well, and how many other qualified countries are not members of the EU.

Since when has UEFA ever stated that being a member of the EU is a requirement to take part in UEFA competitions.

[PhilGull]

The Government will not be able to do anything with out agreement from the relevant EU commissioner, as I said in my previous reply, it's all in the links.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consume ... id_en.html

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... nce_v2.pdf

And when we're talking about scaremongering, both sides are guilty, however the in campaign are 10 times worse than the out campaign, what's the latest effort we hear, if the country votes out England will be suspended from EURO 16, that one is just laughable.

After all if the country does vote out, both Wales and Northern Ireland will also be leaving the EU, so why won't they be suspended as well, and how many other qualified countries are not members of the EU.

Since when has UEFA ever stated that being a member of the EU is a requirement to take part in UEFA competitions.

There will be some interestig questions for football in the UK though regarding work permits and the like. Could be an interesting time for the financial dominance of the Premier League...

[Dave]

There could be, however I don't think leaving the EU will change anything as far as our national or domestic football is concerned. For a start the premier league is screened right the way across the entire world, not just in the EU.

Premier league clubs sign players from all over the world, not just the EU, should we leave the EU, players from EU countries will need work permits, just like they did before this unelected, bureaucratic monster was ever thought of, and just like players from South/North America, Africa and players coming in from non-EU European countries.

As far as football goes very little will change.

[PhilGull]

There could be, however I don't think leaving the EU will change anything as far as our national or domestic football is concerned. For a start the premier league is screened right the way across the entire world, not just in the EU.

Premier league clubs sign players from all over the world, not just the EU, should we leave the EU, players from EU countries will need work permits, just like they did before this unelected, bureaucratic monster was ever thought of, and just like players from South/North America, Africa and players coming in from non-EU European countries.

As far as football goes very little will change.

You may not bother voting in the European elections but some of us do!

[Dave]

I clearly wasn't referring to the MEP'S, I was referring to the EU commission president and the EU commissioners, basically the people that tell EU member states what they can and can not do, these people are unelected, no citizen of any EU country gets to vote for them they are appointed.

[PhilGull]

The EU commissioners are appointed by our elected representatives. Just like the people in Whitehall who do the actual work of government are appointed by our MPs.

Added in 2 minutes 7 seconds:
And while we're on the subject of Europe. I keep here arguments for why the EU is bad and why we should leave but I'm yet to hear anything about what the plan is if we do vote to leave. I for one would want to see widespread reform within the UK - a fully elected second chamber and a break of the relationship between monarchy and Parliament.