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It's nothing of the sort!

Real poverty is usually unavoidable and is a human tragedy over which the millions of people globally who suffer it have no control of their own destiny.

Torquay United have always had control over their own destiny and always will do; that is the difference.

Agreed. Contrary to popular belief nobody owes Torquay United anything.

Money may be the god to football’s new religious order, but the fans are the followers, and if there is no faith in the game, then there is no money to be made. Thus in the end, the game itself is all that really matters.

And what then of Torquay United's destiny. In the words of Winston Churchill: 'Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts.'

merse btpir wrote: ↑31 Jan 2018, 22:34 Plenty of Premier League TV generated money goes into grass roots football that is far more deserving than a gaggle of so called professional clubs who have been mis-managed by amateurs whether well meaning or not. If other clubs at our level can be sustainable then so can we.

A good example o f this is at Barrow AFC who are the forthcoming visitiors to Plainmoor.........

They hope to convert the 'other pitch' at Holker Street (currently used West Lancs League club Furness Rangers) into a 3G and fully floodlit facility that will benefit the whole communiy as well as provide them with a training ground in the town ~ right now their only one is rented and almost a hundred miles away in Rochdale ~ believe it or not the town of Barrow-In-Furness dopesn't have one fully sized 3G and floodlit pitch which can be used by local footballers!

..........and who going to provide the bulk of he expense of this? The Football Foundation (founded in 2,000) which is funded by the Premier League, the FA and Sport for England and all over the country we see these vital facilities springing up and being made available to grass roots football...........THAT'S where the drip down is going; not into a benefactorial mess up at the local professional football club!

Yet even then, clubs like Torquay United benefit from these facilities and that funding, so don't tell me it is one-sided and skewed as many will have us believe!

merse btpir wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 08:46 Yet even then, clubs like Torquay United benefit from these facilities and that funding, so don't tell me it is one-sided and skewed as many will have us believe![/b]

You have ask why the facilities of the Premier League & The FA Facilities Fund, up to £500,000, for building or refurbishing facilities, has not been applied and/or used to its full extent by Torquay United - or has it?

Priority for applications involving professional club community programmes is given to projects that are located within areas of high deprivation (as defined by the Governments Indices of Deprivation). Torbay is amongst the top 15% most deprived district local authorities in England (46th out of 326) and is the most deprived district local authority in the South West region.

The above said, applications are assessed and weighted towards priority projects, so if they assess Plainmoor, the stadium will look like Real Madrids, Bernabeu Stadium compared to other National League South grounds, so I guess we will hardly been seen as a priority case.

merse btpir wrote: ↑31 Jan 2018, 22:34 It's utterly futile and a waste of energy banging on about the money at the top end of the game and the struggles down below it. We are where we are and it is our responsibility to become both sustainable within those parameters or perish.

Plenty of Premier League TV generated money goes into grass roots football that is far more deserving than a gaggle of so called professional clubs who have been mis-managed by amateurs whether well meaning or not. If other clubs at our level can be sustainable then so can we. If other clubs below our current level can be sustainable then so can we and if we don't work it out then when we drop to their level they too will hold the advantage over us.

I've no time for this constant bleating about what the top end of the game earns......they earn it because people want their product. We don't earn it because not many people want ours so we have to redefine and modify our product so that it reaches out to a wider audience ~ simples!

Absolutely agree with that.

Take any lower league / non league football club. The chances are that most will spend year on year on year struggling for success, playing generally dire football and therefore not being a very attractive proposition to existing fans or to any new fans that may be considering going to games.

With this in mind these football clubs actually have an advantage because they already know this in advance. Therefore these clubs need to 'redefine and modify the product' as Merse points out so they can try and make going to a football match at that particular club an enjoyable experience for everyone regardless of result or performance on the pitch.

If you are a struggling lower league football club who ignores it's fans, doesn't communicate, doesn't bother making an effort to vastly improve the matchday experience, doesn't promote itself professionally and effectively, doesn't offer incentives and offers frequently, doesn't offer adequate facilities or try and improve facilities in terms of catering, toilets etc etc then it's highly likely that you are not only highly unlikely to attract any new fans but you are also highly likely to lose EXISTING fans as a consequence.

The sheer number of owners who buy into clubs in the lower leagues and just seem content with running it how it is (failing and tired) and expecting success on the field to bring in extra fans and revenue is staggering. These are businessmen apparently. It's the easy option to hope that success on the field will improve things but only a handful of clubs CAN have this on field success so these owners should plan for their club being shite for a long period of time and thus attempt to improve attendances and income by other means.

Agree with most of that but the trouble is, for Torquay, the demographic of the bay means we are swamped with people from other parts of the country who have no interest whatsoever in going to Plainmoor however good the experience is. Watching the 'stars' on Sky or BT Sport is so easy so there is no desire to go and watch crap football at a club that has no special meaning to them.

Many of the 'northern' clubs such as Barrow already have a loyal fan base comprising people who have traditionally supported them for generations because that is what communities based around major industries such as ship building and steel etc. did. I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of the population of Barrow are true locals who grow up supporting their local team. I mean, there can't be many people who go on holiday to Barrow and then think ' what a lovely place, think I'll come here to live when I retire'.

Obviously they get the same competition from the likes of Sky but the point I'm trying to make is that they have a stronger core fan base than we do in terms of community involvement. If that is right, and I might be way off the mark here, an improved match day experience is likely to be better received than it is down here where our greatest enemy, apart from you know who, is the lack of interest and apathy of the population as a whole.

Torquay has holidaymakers of all ages all year round. Surely there could be offers advertised in hotels and holiday parks and tourist attractions for special holidaymaker deals etc and in return we give the establishments a free advert or two in the matchday programme throughout the course of a season? This has probably been done before no doubt so apologies if it has but i think a few extra quid could be made here if we are to be writing off the locals. What other choice do we have? It's an advantage over Barrrow for sure. Can't see many people heading to Barrow for their hols.

I know personally that i always look for a local game or two to go and watch wherever i am on holiday.

MellowYellow wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 09:46 You have ask why the facilities of the Premier League & The FA Facilities Fund, up to £500,000, for building or refurbishing facilities, has not been applied and/or used to its full extent by Torquay United - or has it?

Priority for applications involving professional club community programmes is given to projects that are located within areas of high deprivation (as defined by the Governments Indices of Deprivation). Torbay is amongst the top 15% most deprived district local authorities in England (46th out of 326) and is the most deprived district local authority in the South West region.

The above said, applications are assessed and weighted towards priority projects, so if they assess Plainmoor, the stadium will look like Real Madrids, Bernabeu Stadium compared to other National League South grounds, so I guess we will hardly been seen as a priority case.

We received £750,000 from them towards Bristow's Bench in 2012-money that will have to be paid back if the stand isn't in use for 10 years(2022)

Some good points DB57 thats how I see it, great favourite player too, still recall Jimmy Dunnes two late
headers in the fog to beat Scunthorpe 2-1

DB57 wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 10:20Agree with most of that but the trouble is, for Torquay, the demographic of the bay means we are swamped with people from other parts of the country......

Oh come on, think positive and turn that to your advantage........

I live in a city where many are 'incomers'/immigrants and economic migrants from all over the UK and abroad. It doesn't impact negatively at all in fact it is a bonus.

So where is the will and drive to make welcome the incomer, the immigrant and the economic migrant? Where is the imagination to set up a little group of exiled Rangers/Celtic/Man Utd/Arsenal orientated folk who very definitely DO inhabit Torbay?

Weekly five-a-sdie leagues; all sorts of sports and pastimes should be accommodated within the social facilities of the club in the same manner that they are in The Association of Provincial Football Supporters' Clubs In London ~ making people welcome, recognising them as an equal member of the community and reaching out to them as the community professional football club; that is the answer.

You're living in a dreamworld if you are trying to compare the 'non locals' of London and Torquay.
The majority of 'incomers/immigrants' into London are young and want to work in a city with plenty of jobs and have a plethora of teams to watch.
'Incomers/immigrants' to Torquay are either OAPs with no interest in watching live football or Spiceheads living on the street who have no interest in watching football.

WHG wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 11:41You're living in a dreamworld if you are trying to compare the 'non locals' of London and Torquay.

I'm certainly not; the indisputable FACT is that it is inclusion that needs to be pursued rather than exclusion..........

At the trust SGM on Tuesday night, Vice Chair Robin Causley reported on a successful bid he had submitted on behalf of TUST to the Fans Fund Grants Scheme. The Fund supports projects which improve the relationship between fans and their clubs and improve the way football supporters engage with each other and improve fans' experience of the game. In conjunction with the club and the Torquay United Community Supporters Trust the project will engage new supporters and develop pathways to a range of match day and non-match day provision. A Fans Hub will be the means to engage with the local community prioritising the most deprived wards in Torbay and wider coastal and rural population outside of Torbay.

Within those communities, those currently under represented at matches such as girls, BAME (Black, Asian & Minority Ethnic) and disabled people of all ages, etc. will be targeted.

A Pop-up Fans Zone/Hub will be used on match days and within community settings throughout the year.
Volunteers will be trained to manage and promote the project, with 10 outreach sessions planned in various community settings.
A “free” match-day package will be provided by the Club for people selected from the outreach sessions.

£20,000 has been awarded under the grant and a co-ordinator will be employed on a sessional basis to manage and develop the project. Funding will also be used to build TUST’s infrastructure, website, marketing and membership.

This was seen as a great example of how TUST can try and add value to the club as a whole and what you need to take on board is the importance of adopting an attitude of positivity and inclusion in the quest to expand the support base of the club.

merse btpir wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 12:08 I'm certainly not; the indisputable FACT is that it is inclusion that needs to be pursued rather than exclusion..........

At the trust SGM on Tuesday night, Vice Chair Robin Causley reported on a successful bid he had submitted on behalf of TUST to the Fans Fund Grants Scheme. The Fund supports projects which improve the relationship between fans and their clubs and improve the way football supporters engage with each other and improve fans' experience of the game. In conjunction with the club and the Torquay United Community Supporters Trust the project will engage new supporters and develop pathways to a range of match day and non-match day provision. A Fans Hub will be the means to engage with the local community prioritising the most deprived wards in Torbay and wider coastal and rural population outside of Torbay.

Within those communities, those currently under represented at matches such as girls, BAME (Black, Asian & Minority Ethnic) and disabled people of all ages, etc. will be targeted.

A Pop-up Fans Zone/Hub will be used on match days and within community settings throughout the year.
Volunteers will be trained to manage and promote the project, with 10 outreach sessions planned in various community settings.
A “free” match-day package will be provided by the Club for people selected from the outreach sessions.

£20,000 has been awarded under the grant and a co-ordinator will be employed on a sessional basis to manage and develop the project. Funding will also be used to build TUST’s infrastructure, website, marketing and membership.

This was seen as a great example of how TUST can try and add value to the club as a whole and what you need to take on board is the importance of adopting an attitude of positivity and inclusion in the quest to expand the support base of the club.

And the indisputable FACT is that you can't compare the demographic of Torbay with London. Its not a case of anybody being excluded but inclusion has to be a two way thing wherever and whoever you are.
The point I was was making was that the majority of people in the bay have little interest or loyalty to TUFC. Those that have are already "supporters"
and I don't think that number will increase significantly whatever is done to encourage them.

DB57 wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 13:59 And the indisputable FACT is that you can't compare the demographic of Torbay with London. Its not a case of anybody being excluded but inclusion has to be a two way thing wherever and whoever you are. The point I was was making was that the majority of people in the bay have little interest or loyalty to TUFC. Those that have are already "supporters" and I don't think that number will increase significantly whatever is done to encourage them.

Demographics are different everywhere; that shouldn't be the issue. The issue is that the support base needs to be expanded and the effort made to reach out. That's how you expand, not by stuffing your hands in your poskes and turning your collar up against the 'stranger'

Don't expect the stranger to approach you; go out and welcome the stranger. There are plenty of varied football clubs doing just such things in vastly different demographically areas than London.

The objectivity and positivity of the Torquay United Community Supporters Trust is a prime example of just what can be done and has been achieved so far and what it needs and deserves now is that the planned for Fans Hub will be the means to engage with the local community prioritising the most deprived wards in Torbay and wider coastal and rural population outside of Torbay. Within those communities, those currently under represented at matches such as girls, BAME (Black, Asian & Minority Ethnic) and disabled people of all ages, etc. will be targeted. A Pop-up Fans Zone/Hub will be used on match days and within community settings throughout the year and that's what needs to be done rather than miserably taking the negative view.

My point of view is positive whilst yours is negative; positivity doesn't kill football clubs; negativity does!

Well I don't think I'm negative or miserable despite having supported torquay for 60 years but I do think I'm reasonably realistic. You've done an excellent job cutting and pasting from the TUST report and I will await with interest for the Fans Hub together with the influx of BAME representative who I will welcome with open arms.