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yellowforever wrote: The most annoying thing with this is that it will see an upsurge in support for UKIP. Oh deary me.

The far right always comes to the fore during tough economic times. It's a self preservation thing. If you can convince people to pick on someone else, they're much less likely to pick on you. In the modern age, that someone else is people who look or sound a bit different. Hence foreigners and Muslims. They're easily identifiable at a glance and they're usually not minded to fight back.

Steve is quite right, we had many years of perfectly good Government under the Tories, then along came Labour and within 10 years we were back in the Stoneage.

The upsetting thing is that it's the Tories, with their financially sound ideas who are seen as demonising the poor. What they're actually doing is making the poor slightly more poor on the basis that they were generously treated by the last administration.

We're all in the shit together, so we all have to work together to get out of it. Leftists want to do this by forcing everyone onto the lowest rung of the ladder, so we're all nice and equal. It is a socialists dream. The right want to attempt to force those on the lowest rung to be better than that and, for those willing to put in the effort, the rewards are there. I'm afraid I can have no sympathy with those who either can't or won't try harder, that is Darwinism and my life should not be affected because someone else can't manage. I don't hold back Stephen Fry, so why should some idiot loser hold me back?

The NHS and this weekend's mascot are a prime example. The NHS is a wonderful thing, free health care for all really is a great theory. Sadly, it is holding us back so far you cannot imagine. Why do all the really sick people have to beg for retweets on Twitter to raise money for little Isabella to go to America for life saving treatment? Is it because only Americans know how to use the machines? No, it's because only a heath system funded properly by an insurance system can afford the equipment in the first place.
The NHS: free, but crap*

Matt.

*I should point out that, on the rare occasions that I've made use of the NHS, it's been excellent and that, by and large, the staff do an excellent job under impossible circumstances. Sadly 'the NHS:free, but could do better if it was privately funded' wasn't quite such a catchy way to end.

ferrarilover wrote: The far right always comes to the fore during tough economic times. It's a self preservation thing. If you can convince people to pick on someone else, they're much less likely to pick on you. In the modern age, that someone else is people who look or sound a bit different. Hence foreigners and Muslims. They're easily identifiable at a glance and they're usually not minded to fight back.

Steve is quite right, we had many years of perfectly good Government under the Tories, then along came Labour and within 10 years we were back in the Stoneage.

The upsetting thing is that it's the Tories, with their financially sound ideas who are seen as demonising the poor. What they're actually doing is making the poor slightly more poor on the basis that they were generously treated by the last administration.

We're all in the sh*t together, so we all have to work together to get out of it. Leftists want to do this by forcing everyone onto the lowest rung of the ladder, so we're all nice and equal. It is a socialists dream. The right want to attempt to force those on the lowest rung to be better than that and, for those willing to put in the effort, the rewards are there. I'm afraid I can have no sympathy with those who either can't or won't try harder, that is Darwinism and my life should not be affected because someone else can't manage. I don't hold back Stephen Fry, so why should some idiot loser hold me back?

The NHS and this weekend's mascot are a prime example. The NHS is a wonderful thing, free health care for all really is a great theory. Sadly, it is holding us back so far you cannot imagine. Why do all the really sick people have to beg for retweets on Twitter to raise money for little Isabella to go to America for life saving treatment? Is it because only Americans know how to use the machines? No, it's because only a heath system funded properly by an insurance system can afford the equipment in the first place.
The NHS: free, but crap*

Matt.

*I should point out that, on the rare occasions that I've made use of the NHS, it's been excellent and that, by and large, the staff do an excellent job under impossible circumstances. Sadly 'the NHS:free, but could do better if it was privately funded' wasn't quite such a catchy way to end.

Oh dear, Matt, going to have to straighten you out (if that’s the right expression) on a few things:

First, while there’s a degree of truth in your first paragraph it would be wrong to imply (if that’s what you’re doing) that UKIP is a far right racist party. It is not. Indeed, a demographical survey of its members indicated that they represent a broad cross-section of society. UKIP’s anti-EU stance is based on economic priciples and a desire to maintain democracy, political freedom and independence for the UK. Its opposition to unlimited cross-border movement within the EU and its desire for greater immigration control (which is echoed by other parties) is due to the simple fact that the UK is over-populated: if the UK did not import food it would have to introduce rationing or it’s population would slowly begin to starve. And it is surely madness for the EU to require free access for all EU citizens however unqualified and whether or not they speak English, whilst placing severe restrictions on qualified people from the rest of the world.

Secondly, you refer to ‘good government under the Tories’. Sorry to have to disillusion you on this, but they have been just as bad as Labour givernments, for example, helping to destroy the UK manufacturing base, creating a house price bubble which left thousands in negative equity debt, and slowly and systematically dismantling the NHS in preparation for privatisiation, something for which Labour, to its shame, was equally culpable. But worst of all, since the present coalition government was elected it has borrowed more money than the previous Labour administrations did in all their thirteen years of power: http://info.moneyweek.com/urgent-bullet ... f-britain/ Any recent upturn in the economy is due solely to this and it is unsustainable.

I am no lover of New Labour. In office they behaved so much like a Conservative government you could hardly tell the difference. Even so, both they and the Conservatives gave away too much in benefits (particularly for such things as child care: I happen to agree with Jeremy Kyle, whom I normally cannot stand: if people cannot afford to have kids they should not have kids). So I happen to agree with you to a great extent on benefits, but certainly not with your general attitude towards the less fortunate in society, which attitude I find unacceptable. The mark of a civilised sociey is the degree to which it looks after its less fortunate members. If it will not do this, it cannot be called civilised and the law of the jungle prevails.

As to the NHS, private healthcare is fine for those who can afford the insurance. But why do you think that the US private healthcare sytem is the most expensive in the world, and why so many people in the USA have little or no access to it? The NHS, like other nationally run healthcare systems in Europe and worldwide, is far more cost-effective than any private service run for profit, this despite not being properly funded and being interfered with by politicians who place greater importance on policial ideology (usually capitalism in this case) or on their own careers.

I’m afraid your comments display an unfortunate blinkered and somewhat egocentric view of the world. Unless, of course, you know better...

The Conservatives need a leader that isn't social democratic and people may begin to have hope in the Tories again.

I suspect some of you (like me) will fall into the category of 'young voter' for the next elections (No you, SNW!). And I just wonder what you think of the political scene.

To me, I don't feel like any party is really after my vote, and such no policies are being made to appeal to me. Conservatives claim to protect pensions as lot of old people vote conservative. But they hike up tuition fees to cripple the young. No housing policies seems to be trying to help us young up and comers also.

Lib Dems had quite a strong youth backing in the last election and I can't quite forgive them for going against their main vote winner with them by doubling over about tuition fees. I know compromises have to be made in coalition but that was one of their main policies and they don't appear to have even tried to keep the fees down. They just let conservatives put any number on it they want.

Labour seem weak to me personally and they too aren't creating policies for their manifesto that appeal to young voters. Infact, they aren't really coming up with any policies at all (except that absurd energy price freeze).

It appears when I do vote I don't really have a party that has targeted me. At least that's how I feel.

stevegull wrote:I suspect some of you (like me) will fall into the category of 'young voter' for the next elections (No you, SNW!). And I just wonder what you think of the political scene.

To me, I don't feel like any party is really after my vote, and such no policies are being made to appeal to me. Conservatives claim to protect pensions as lot of old people vote conservative. But they hike up tuition fees to cripple the young. No housing policies seems to be trying to help us young up and comers also.

Lib Dems had quite a strong youth backing in the last election and I can't quite forgive them for going against their main vote winner with them by doubling over about tuition fees. I know compromises have to be made in coalition but that was one of their main policies and they don't appear to have even tried to keep the fees down. They just let conservatives put any number on it they want.

Labour seem weak to me personally and they too aren't creating policies for their manifesto that appeal to young voters. Infact, they aren't really coming up with any policies at all (except that absurd energy price freeze).

It appears when I do vote I don't really have a party that has targeted me. At least that's how I feel.

what? :-o

lets face it - all the parties are full of sh*t.

Why do people keep banging on about tuition fees crippling young people? That's absolute bollocks. Tuition fees are paid by the Student Loan Company and are repaid at some paltry rate of about £1 per £1000 over £18,000 pa earned. Guys on £45,000 paying back £25/week to SLC.

My argument remains the same, Steve. The left want us all to be glued to the bottom rung of the ladder, just so long as everyone is nice and equal, that's fine. The Tories at least make no bones about being a sink or swim party. They dish out the tools and it's up to you and I to use them to our best advantage. This is why Guardian types are always harping on about how much all the Tory donors are worth, as if each and every one of us isn't trying to earn as much money as possible to live the nicest life we can. Labour have always been in denial about the real world, suggesting that if we all bumped along on £12,000/year, we'd all be happy because at least we'd not be any worse off than anyone else. The truth is that we all, every one of us, like it or not wants the best for ourselves. If that means I have to work harder and be better than other people who will suffer as a consequence, that's tough on them. We all start with the same opportunities, we all have access to exactly the same NHS to guarantee our health and the same State education system to give us an academic grounding. As I've said, University is basically free, so there's no excuse for anyone not to have a bloody good go at making a success of their lives. Yes, it's **** hard work (sometimes) and yes, it's **** boring (most of the time), but it's the price you pay for the first 20 years to ensure that the next 70 are filled with fast cars and posh Champagne.

Get busy living or get busy dying, a wise man once said.

Matt.

So, Matt, you've decided what the most important things in life are, and what you want out of life, and you think you have what it takes to achieve that. And so you've decided that a law-of-the-jungle political philosophy is the only one to follow; that the politics of dog-eat-dog, of ruthless competition and self-interest, is all that matters.

And such things as our common humanity, community, co-operation, compassion, charity, service to others, concern for the sick, the poor, the old, the afflicted, the oppressed, all of these things mean nothing to you?

I get the impression you probably think it's fine to rip people off, to profit by exploiting other people for as little as you can get away with, to do away with all state benefits and pensions, and to make everybody pay for their own education, healthcare, and old age?

But it's absolutely not true that 'we all start with the same opportunities'. And it's not true that 'we all, every one of us, like it or not wants the best for ourselves'. You may find this a strange concept, but there are many who also want the best for everybody else, even at some cost to themselves.

That does not mean dividing down to the lowest level for everyone; people's needs and desires are as individual as every single one of us. It does mean the whole community caring for every member of the community and ensuring the basic necessities of life and the opportunity to achieve one's full potential as a human being.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, neither socialism nor capitalism have the complete answer; some people choose a life of service to others, some choose service to self, and most live a life somewhere in between. I may be wrong, I hope I am, but I get the impression you wouldn't even bother to help an old lady across a busy road.

Perhaps one day you may find it beneficial to spend less time considering your own self-interest, and a little more time considering what it means to live like a human being.

dannyrvtufc4life wrote:I've never seen a thread on this forum that's close to politics, maybe there's a reason for that I'm not sure, but what's everyone's opinion on commons in favour of gay marriage?

I personally am very into politics. Yes I'm only 16 years of age, but I'm a Young Independance member for the UK Independance Party (UKIP) and will hopefully soon be in the process in starting up the Young Independance for Devon with the YI Devon chairman. Anyway, that's me and politics, but going back to the subject, what's your opinion on gay marriage?

I'll give my opinion, I oppose the idea of same sex marriage. The point of marriage is to procreate, we've had many fantastic significant scientific advances in the recent times, but nothing that say a man and a man of two women can make a baby. Someone at my school said to me 'well what about a couple who can't conceive?' My answer to that is/was, yes it's very sad that some couples cannot have children naturally, but the fact of the matter is, the only way to have children naturally is though a man and a woman, which is the point of marriage. I do not oppose civil partnerships, it should be seen as a privilege in this country that homosexuals have this. I also do not oppose gay adoption. Sadly many couples do not treat children right, if a home for a child is better and safer with two homosexuals in a civil partnership, then that is the better option. The thing I do not agree with, is the marriage side.

Discuss?

I would say that you've got your head screwed on right, everything you've said I agree with. I voted ukip at the last election I wish more people would.Get out of europe.

Rangeroverlover wrote: The far right always comes to the fore during tough economic times. It's a self preservation thing. If you can convince people to pick on someone else, they're much less likely to pick on you. In the modern age, that someone else is people who look or sound a bit different. Hence foreigners and Muslims. They're easily identifiable at a glance and they're usually not minded to fight back.

Steve is quite right, we had many years of perfectly good Government under the Tories, then along came Labour and within 10 years we were back in the Stoneage.

The upsetting thing is that it's the Tories, with their financially sound ideas who are seen as demonising the poor. What they're actually doing is making the poor slightly more poor on the basis that they were generously treated by the last administration.

We're all in the sh*t together, so we all have to work together to get out of it. Leftists want to do this by forcing everyone onto the lowest rung of the ladder, so we're all nice and equal. It is a socialists dream. The right want to attempt to force those on the lowest rung to be better than that and, for those willing to put in the effort, the rewards are there. I'm afraid I can have no sympathy with those who either can't or won't try harder, that is Darwinism and my life should not be affected because someone else can't manage. I don't hold back Stephen Fry, so why should some idiot loser hold me back?

The NHS and this weekend's mascot are a prime example. The NHS is a wonderful thing, free health care for all really is a great theory. Sadly, it is holding us back so far you cannot imagine. Why do all the really sick people have to beg for retweets on Twitter to raise money for little Isabella to go to America for life saving treatment? Is it because only Americans know how to use the machines? No, it's because only a heath system funded properly by an insurance system can afford the equipment in the first place.
The NHS: free, but crap*

Matt.

*I should point out that, on the rare occasions that I've made use of the NHS, it's been excellent and that, by and large, the staff do an excellent job under impossible circumstances. Sadly 'the NHS:free, but could do better if it was privately funded' wasn't quite such a catchy way to end.

I think transport (ambulance) to and from hospital should be paid by the patient when he or she has recovered.

Yes but if UKIP got into power (which will never happen) they will then just get themselves rich like all the others so the best thing to do is to thank the suffragettes with all your heart for all they went through but ultimatey accept that is it politicians that have led to people not bothering to vote because whoever gets in whatever they say is all meaningless once they are actually in a position to do something about it. It's called morals and doing what is right even at the expense of oneself and sadly I've rarely seen any politicians prepared to do this. That is why people don't vote anymore and that is why no matter how many debates are had nothing will ever change. Sad but true. Anybody who DOES get into any sort of position to do anything positive and starts commenting on things that aren't acceptable soon get booted out, labelled as a troublemaker and made to look like a complete idiot. Just like in the top corporations, men have got to the very top of their companies and generally you can't do that without being ruthless and also having sympathy and empathy for others. Politics. What a great game to play if you are lucky enough to be a contestant. You always win!

UKIP weather forecast: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25901814

In 2011 a certain Mr Bhutto joined UKIP. Two years later he was, apparently, UKIP's Commonwealth spokesman. But when UKIP found out about his criminal past (he was jailed in 2005 for his part in a Pakistani kidnapping) he resigned from the party. Now, the BBC (which is, among other things, pro-Europe, pro-Israel, and pro-feminist), by trying to infer that UKIP knew about and was okay with Bhutto's past, is attempting to smear UKIP with this old news which was never really news at all. This sort of thing is dealt with by all political parties from time to time. The only difference is that UKIP wants to take the UK out of the EU, and from now on we can expect to see more attempts by the BBC, the government, the EU establishment, and the pro-EU media, to malign and blacken UKIP's name in the run up to May's EU elections.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26019668

Any party that wants to put an end to central Governement will be ridiculed. The powers that be don't want us to be anything other than sheep. Voices like that of UKIP should be protected at all costs before we lose what few rights we have left.

The socialism of the BBC shines through once again and will attack UKIP whenever they can. UKIP say something that is different to the Lib/Lab/Con and the media doesn't like it.

I quite liked that UKIP weather forecast. Farage has character in a world where no-one else seems to!