TorquayFans.com | Torquay United Fans Forum

Yes, you're clearly far too intelligent for me to debate with. That's obviously what the issue is here. It's definitely not that you wrote a load of nonsense and then tried to pass it off as hypothetical.

To remind you, you suggested that if he was aiming for safety, it was a successful season. You evidently have no idea if that was his aim, so your point is moot.

My concern(s) about Ling returning are that a) the slight feel good factor we've had over the last few weeks will be damaged and b) we return to the prehistoric horrendous football that would have sent us to the Conference this season had Knill not taken over.

I wasn't really for Knill mainly because his record in similar situations was dire, but I don't know whether it's his actual methods or we did it out of sheer neccesity but we were far more adventurous and attack minded in his games. I managed to not see us score this season in the games I attended so it's by far the worst season I've personally had but our performances at Northampton and Gillingham were both spirited and we should have scored a couple of goals in both of those games. Under Ling I was lucky if I saw a shot and we wer elining up with 1 attacking player on the pitch + a load of Lingy's mates.

I've never been Ling's biggest fan as a manager, I've often thought our opinion of him as fans was always exaggerated simply because he wasn't Buckle and we really wanted him to do well to prove some sort of point to Bucks and Bristol Rovers. It was great that we did so well last season but we weren't a particularly good side. We were the same as we are now just with a great keeper and a top attacking midfielder who both all being well and good will be playing in the CHampionship next year.

Accept the point that Ling has made 1 or 2 very good signings for us including Olejnik but the bad far outweigh the good this year and the style of football is the one thing I just can't get behind.

I'd love to see Warnock come in as a DOF with possibly a young manager working with him although I think that option won't even be considered and probably understandably so. I think we need fresh eyes (Knill is fine to be fair) to overhaul this squad because that's what i needs. Some have been here a while and aren't going to imporove us anymore, our attacking options in particular need a complete change. Not sure Ling will do that.

if he does return which looks likely then he'll get my support but if we return to the utter dross of last year then I won't be attending any games.

royalgull wrote:My concern(s) about Ling returning are that a) the slight feel good factor we've had over the last few weeks will be damaged and b) we return to the prehistoric horrendous football that would have sent us to the Conference this season had Knill not taken over.

I wasn't really for Knill mainly because his record in similar situations was dire, but I don't know whether it's his actual methods or we did it out of sheer neccesity but we were far more adventurous and attack minded in his games. I managed to not see us score this season in the games I attended so it's by far the worst season I've personally had but our performances at Northampton and Gillingham were both spirited and we should have scored a couple of goals in both of those games. Under Ling I was lucky if I saw a shot and we wer elining up with 1 attacking player on the pitch + a load of Lingy's mates.

I've never been Ling's biggest fan as a manager, I've often thought our opinion of him as fans was always exaggerated simply because he wasn't Buckle and we really wanted him to do well to prove some sort of point to Bucks and Bristol Rovers. It was great that we did so well last season but we weren't a particularly good side. We were the same as we are now just with a great keeper and a top attacking midfielder who both all being well and good will be playing in the CHampionship next year.

Accept the point that Ling has made 1 or 2 very good signings for us including Olejnik but the bad far outweigh the good this year and the style of football is the one thing I just can't get behind.

I'd love to see Warnock come in as a DOF with possibly a young manager working with him although I think that option won't even be considered and probably understandably so. I think we need fresh eyes (Knill is fine to be fair) to overhaul this squad because that's what i needs. Some have been here a while and aren't going to imporove us anymore, our attacking options in particular need a complete change. Not sure Ling will do that.

if he does return which looks likely then he'll get my support but if we return to the utter dross of last year then I won't be attending any games.

Hear hear. Lets back him and see how we start, then if after 10 (approx) games decide. I wont shell out close to £100 per game to watch boring nil nil rubbish.

Fonda wrote:
If we honestly entered the season with that mindset, it's no wonder we nearly went down. And there are issues to be addressed. You have to at least aim high surely? Obviously you have to be realistic, but if you aim for 22nd, you don't have to miss by much to end up very disappointed.

That is precisely what our ambition was this season.

It was carried out with unerring precision.

It is exactly why the fare has been poor.

The direction comes from the Directors.

Martin Ling was tasked to carry out the plan. He was the messenger.

Do not shoot the messenger.

AustrianAndyGull wrote:What we are failing to realise is that if Martin hadn't been ill we would be facing Dartford next season IMO but even if not, he still took us to the precipice

Really?

Remind me where we were in the league when he went off sick....

....on a slide down the table

Gullscorer wrote: But Andy, if Martin is fully recovered and fit again, obviously he won't be carrying on where he left off! And nobody can surmise what he might or might not have achieved if he had not been taken ill. If his remit was to have kept the team in League Two, then a finish in twenty-second place would have been deemed a successful job done.

And he's not, repeat not, a bad manager. He's brought some excellent players into the club and achieved a degree of success. Every manager, even the best ones, presides over runs of poor form, which are also affected by other factors apart from managerial ability, such as illness, finances, boardroom decisions, injuries and suspensions. And whether he plays a basically attacking style or a defensive style of play is often forced upon a manager by circumstances.

But whether it's Ling or Knill next season, we should welcome and support whoever's in charge. Yes we can disagree with any number of things a manager may decide or do over a season. That's all a matter of opinion. But nobody should denigrate (and I'm not saying you are, but some appear to be doing so) the abilities and character of a man undeserving of such denigration.

this obviously wasnt the case.

ling himself said aim for the top three with the play-offs as a safety net....

doesnt sound like aim for 22nd to me..........

PlainmoorRoar wrote:....on a slide down the table

That could have been stopped at any moment.

People are, wrongly, presuming that the team that had that horrendous run under Taylor would have still occurred under Ling.

Scott Brehaut wrote: People are, wrongly, presuming that the team that had that horrendous run under Taylor would have still occurred under Ling.

well it was doing before he left scotty............

Fonda wrote:Yes, you're clearly far too intelligent for me to debate with. That's obviously what the issue is here. It's definitely not that you wrote a load of nonsense and then tried to pass it off as hypothetical.

To remind you, you suggested that if he was aiming for safety, it was a successful season. You evidently have no idea if that was his aim, so your point is moot.

That is not what I was suggesting. Read my sentence again: 'If his remit was to have kept the team in League Two, then a finish in twenty-second place would have been deemed a successful job done'.

I will concede that in haste I don't always express myself as well as I ought to do. So I should perhaps have written: 'If, for example, his remit had been to keep the team in League Two (which it may or may not have been), then the board would have deemed a finish in twenty-second place to have been a successful job done'.

I hope that makes everything clear, in the context of my original post. If, however, you still believe I wrote a 'load of nonsense', then it's only fair to point out there may be those who think that what you wrote was completely asinine. :na:

The slide down the table had begun and performances were getting more and more appalling and Ling would probably have continued employing the same tactics which would ultimately have seen us relegated. Taylor simply carried on under Lings advice and so the slump continued. It took Knill to implement changes in tactics, attitude and personnel to drag us out of the crap JUST. Without that we'd be down under Ling in March.

I would have thought that ANYONE could have seen that was the likelihood.

So it's ok to write anything, however bizarre, as long as it's pre-fixed with 'if'?

It's highly unlikely the aim of the club was to enter the last week of the season with the very real possibility of relegation. So to suggest it might have been, and use this as some sort of defence stikes me as odd.

At the same time Scott, you're also assuming that it wouldn't have happened under Ling.

It's all conjecture really, no one can know what would have happened so I'm not really sure why there is so much debate over it.

What we do know is this:-

The football is boring and far too often nailbiting when we could have put a few past some of the teams we've held onto 1-0 wins against.

That said, once he gets the tactics right and the players right, Ling knows how to win games. Although not pretty, it's points on the board that count come May.

In my opinion, this worries me. The conditions need to be perfect for Ling to flourish, but it seems to take him too long to get there. Any manager at this level could bring out the form from the start of this season and with more enjoyable football too. Not many managers could bring the form from the middle of last season though which was truly unbelievable. Even during the promotion season under Leroy we didn't regularly hold winning runs and maintain a 2nd place position for quite some time.

Ideally, I'd bring someone in who plays better football. I remember coming down to Plainmoor for the 0-0 against Wycombe under Buckle and despite coming away disappointed with the result, I felt that with a fair wind, we could really have stuffed them. Under Ling, you never seem to have that feeling.

Fonda wrote:So it's ok to write anything, however bizarre, as long as it's pre-fixed with 'if'?
It's highly unlikely the aim of the club was to enter the last week of the season with the very real possibility of relegation. So to suggest it might have been, and use this as some sort of defence stikes me as odd.

You still don't get what I was trying to say..??!! Jeez, I give up !!! I'm off for a pint...