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AustrianAndyGull wrote:That is what I have been saying too Hector although I don't wish to get into a protracted argument about it with others. My opinions on Knill and I presume yours too have been based on what he has done since the opening day draw with Wimbledon and whilst it is possible that we could go on a good run in our next 10 games there is no indication or suggestion of this happening. Therefore on all known form and stats he isn't fulfilling his managerial responsibilities to the requisite standard.

I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that.

I.M.O. the discussions/ arguments about Knills ability/failings will all be over by the end of Nov.Either he will have started to get the team away from the bottom of the league, or we will looking for a new manager. I don't think the board will put up with another 2 point month!

hector wrote:
I think the following stats have somehow passed you by
So, what you're saying here then is that despite Knill being the worst manager in our history, managing the worst team in our history to the worst start in our history under the worst Board in our history in front of the worst supporters in our history, we STILL aren't in the relegation zone? How's that working out for you? Not well, I'll guess.

Right...
Right...
Right, getting a little bored with this now. Quoting the table isn't arguing anything, it's not making a point, it's just quoting the table. In the argument of God v Science, merely quoting the Old Testament isn't really much good.
Oh good, we're still on this...
Wait. What? Where have Cheltenham popped up from?
zzzzzzz
Remind me again, just how many games there are in a League season.
Yes, well done, that's all your fingers and one toe. Still completely meaningless though, just a list of numbers.
Riiiiiiiight...
It's not really blind faith, it's football. We've got a better chance of beating Bury in week 14 than we had of beating Oxford in week 3. Surely you follow this? That said, given our, frankly ridiculous, injury list, perhaps we don't...

Why wouldn't we stay up? I've seen what I've seen and we aren't one of the two worst sides in the division, full stop. You can quote numbers all you like. I once met a mathematician who could show, mathematically, a link between the average bra size in the state of California and the average height of the peaks of the Appellation mountains. There was a correlation, but no causation.

Your apocalyptic vision of the future for Torquay is based on a situation which hasn't arisen, couldn't arise if the season finished today and, with every passing week, looks less and less likely to happen.

We've enjoyed a harder start than all those around us apart from Bury. Rovers have had the easiest start of the lot of us, they've spent more than anyone else down here (perhaps Plymouth have spent more, but I think it's unlikely), they have a dreadful recent history of sacking manager after manager and are going through a terrible time. If anyone needs to be worried, it's them, not us.

Matt.

ferrarilover wrote: Why wouldn't we stay up? I've seen what I've seen and we aren't one of the two worst sides in the division, full stop. You can quote numbers all you like. I once met a mathematician who could show, mathematically, a link between the average bra size in the state of California and the average height of the peaks of the Appellation mountains. There was a correlation, but no causation.

Your apocalyptic vision of the future for Torquay is based on a situation which hasn't arisen, couldn't arise if the season finished today and, with every passing week, looks less and less likely to happen.

We've enjoyed a harder start than all those around us apart from Bury. Rovers have had the easiest start of the lot of us, they've spent more than anyone else down here (perhaps Plymouth have spent more, but I think it's unlikely), they have a dreadful recent history of sacking manager after manager and are going through a terrible time. If anyone needs to be worried, it's them, not us.

Matt.

I have never said that Knill is our worst ever manager. Paul Compton or John Cornforth, or even Bob John would take that crown in my view but Knill's current record is right up there. Nor did I say our board is the worst in our history. But if you want to make stuff up to make a point, then go ahead.

You suggest that 'with every passing week' relegation (I assume that is what you mean) looks less likely. Just what sort of bizarre world do you operate in, where the longer you go without a win, the more successful it appears to make you? Alongside your Newport conspiracy, this 6 games without a win making it appear less likely that we will be relegated is an interesting theory.

To most people, so long without a win, sitting 1 point off the bottom, would send out some signals of concern - but no, not for you, we are actually getting better somehow.

Hector Please read what you wrote, your either just having a laugh or hurting my brain

TeenageGull wrote:Hector Please read what you wrote, your either just having a laugh or hurting my brain

Reality does, at times, cause the brain to hurt, especially sensitive ones, so probably the latter.

What about those of us who thought he was rubbish when he got the job and still think he's rubbish? I suppose we're stuck with it either way and will have to 'enjoy the ride' Only this ride is a roller coaster with no brakes and a giant cliff at the end.

Hector read your post again and tell me how you have contradicted yourself please

Bob John was before my time; but I have heard of him. Any more info?

Bob John was well before my time too.

However, Torquay's early years in the Football League were pretty poor. After the 2nd World War, John McNeil - who brought Don Mills and Sammy Collins to the club - took over as manager from Merthyr Tydfil. He was the first reasonable manager we had, winning more games than he lost and getting some higher finishing positions in the League. He left citing lack of ambition and moaning about small attendances - even then - and Bob John, who had been - I think - trainer, as they called them then, took over. It was the sort of appointment Mike Bateson would make over and over again. Bob John lasted around 6 months (with a pre-season included in that) only managing 27 games, losing more than half of them and a win percentage on a par with Alan Knill (around 22%). He was replaced by Alex Massie before Eric Webber was appointed.

The basic point of my initial post, which seems to have been lost somewhere, is that firing a manager after less than 3 months is ridiculous. Regardless of how tough things are on the pitch. The only excuse for doing so would be in circumstances such as those surrounding Di Canio at Sunderland. Knill (and the board) will have had a vision of how they want the team to play, and where they want to be at the season end. It is too soon to judge the likelihood of success, in October!

If a manager is to be successful, he needs to be given time. If we were to change the manager now (with all the expense that would entail), and brought in a new man, presumably we’d have to change again in February if the next 3 months prove equally tricky? Where does it end? Continually changing the manager at the first sight of difficulty, is asking for more trouble. It’s financial suicide, and unlikely to reap any rewards in terms of results. At some point you need to have the courage of your convictions. 5 months ago the board thought Knill was the right man to take us forward. We simply can’t be certain already that that was wrong. People are screaming for more consistent selections on the pitch – it’s the same off it.

If in February we are adrift at the foot of the table, with no sign of improvement, the board will be forced into a difficult decision. But to gamble on a change now, when the current incumbent has been given barely enough time to get his feet under the table would be short-sighted in the extreme. As I’ve said previously, it might be that Knill proves to be incapable of delivering what we want him to, and at that time, when it’s PROVEN to be the case, he should go.

Modern football has been rotten at the top of the game for some time. Apparently that’s reached our level now. When fans of League 2 clubs are stamping their feet and demanding change because the manager has failed to deliver exactly what they want after 3 months, the game has gone. Grow up and get behind him. Because in whining about him not doing his job, you’re definitely not doing yours.

I agree Fonda. I don't think Knill is the right man and I think we will be in the mire for a while yet but I don't see the point in sacking him now either. I don't want him here now but sacking him would possibly have financial and footballing repercussions which would hinder our club further. Sacking him in the New Year though if we are still where we are with no improvements might be a good idea then though.

It is the big question. At what stage is the cut off point between whole-hearted faith being exhausted and decisive action being required? It certainly isn't dull and I think if we beat Bury on Saturday then that will go a long way to kick starting our season hopefully. A defeat at Bury who have struggled BIG TIME before their surprise win over Wycombe at the weekend would set us back massively than we already have been.

It's a huge game on Saturday, even now.

Fonda wrote:The basic point of my initial post, which seems to have been lost somewhere, is that firing a manager after less than 3 months is ridiculous. Regardless of how tough things are on the pitch. The only excuse for doing so would be in circumstances such as those surrounding Di Canio at Sunderland. Knill (and the board) will have had a vision of how they want the team to play, and where they want to be at the season end. It is too soon to judge the likelihood of success, in October!

If a manager is to be successful, he needs to be given time. If we were to change the manager now (with all the expense that would entail), and brought in a new man, presumably we’d have to change again in February if the next 3 months prove equally tricky? Where does it end? Continually changing the manager at the first sight of difficulty, is asking for more trouble. It’s financial suicide, and unlikely to reap any rewards in terms of results. At some point you need to have the courage of your convictions. 5 months ago the board thought Knill was the right man to take us forward. We simply can’t be certain already that that was wrong. People are screaming for more consistent selections on the pitch – it’s the same off it.

If in February we are adrift at the foot of the table, with no sign of improvement, the board will be forced into a difficult decision. But to gamble on a change now, when the current incumbent has been given barely enough time to get his feet under the table would be short-sighted in the extreme. As I’ve said previously, it might be that Knill proves to be incapable of delivering what we want him to, and at that time, when it’s PROVEN to be the case, he should go.

Modern football has been rotten at the top of the game for some time. Apparently that’s reached our level now. When fans of League 2 clubs are stamping their feet and demanding change because the manager has failed to deliver exactly what they want after 3 months, the game has gone. Grow up and get behind him. Because in whining about him not doing his job, you’re definitely not doing yours.

You are of course absolutely right and Knill will not be sacked even if we lose the next 2 or 3 in my opinion. We aren't a sacking club really and have stuck by our managers through relative thick and thin in recent times so I expect no different this time around.

going to play Devil's Advocat though, if we wait until it's proven he's not up the job then what chance does that give a new man? after February so after most transfer business is done and all that's left is the emergency loan window?, basically if we are in dire straits then we've little to no chance of getting out of it. do we wait out of sheer bloody mindedness to say no we will see this out and risk our league status?

Because we support a smaller club to Man Utd does that then forfeit the right to ask questions or raise concerns about something to do with the club we support? Is there not threads on players and their individual merits or flaws? does the manager avoid the same scrutiny?

My concerns have been from day 1 with Knill, you appoint someone whose managerial career in the main has been a losing record I suppose you can't then be surprised that your team loses most weeks. The team selections, use of the loans and also budget has been bizarre to say the least but it's signs of a desperate man/team when you get such inconsistency.

the only thing that is giving me some kind of hope is I feel on paper we have a stronger collection of players than we did last year, whether they will be used correctly and got the best out of I strongly doubt. The evidence so far isn't too good.

Not suggesting for a second that ‘because we’re smaller than Man Utd we’re not entitled to question or complain’. We’ve got as much right to express concern about our club as any supporter of any other. But, I think 3 months is too quick for anyone to be demanding change – regardless of who you support. It’s short-termism in the extreme.

As for when you make a change, that’s the tough bit. Completely take the point about potentially leaving it too late. There is no right answer. Perhaps the end of the year is the right cut off (in terms of giving the new man some time to make the necessary changes in January. But if you’ve backed the current manager completely, are we likely to have masses of available budget to make significant changes then anyway?

I’d suggest that all confidence would have to be lost before any change is considered. The board would need to be convinced that a new manager would make an immediate and decisive change to the performances. Never an easy decision as no change comes with guarantees.

Again, Hector, the limiting factor in this discussion is your inability to see beyond the final score of a football match. Until you can do that, any argument more complex than 'we didn't win, so we're shit' will be lost on you. I might as well try to explain String Theory to a chimpanzee.

Matt.

AustrianAndyGull wrote:I agree Fonda. I don't think Knill is the right man and I think we will be in the mire for a while yet but I don't see the point in sacking him now either. I don't want him here now but sacking him would possibly have financial and footballing repercussions which would hinder our club further. Sacking him in the New Year though if we are still where we are with no improvements might be a good idea then though.

It is the big question. At what stage is the cut off point between whole-hearted faith being exhausted and decisive action being required? It certainly isn't dull and I think if we beat Bury on Saturday then that will go a long way to kick starting our season hopefully. A defeat at Bury who have struggled BIG TIME before their surprise win over Wycombe at the weekend would set us back massively than we already have been.

It's a huge game on Saturday, even now.

"If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twer well it were done quickly"

Macbeth Act 1 Scene 7