The European Union: We're out...!!!

[Colorado Gull]

Something we agree on!

But you'll need to change that "I would never become a member of a Party if I did not agree with the views of the leader" ~ standing up for your point of view and doing so from within; THAT'S how you change politics..........the grass roots power of Momentum has done much to underpin Jeremy Corbyn and get the feelings of the grass roots back onto the agenda. I rejoined the Labour Party because of that initiative; as did many others preferring to go with my gut reaction from listening and discussing the matter with my fellow citizens in the neighbourhood and totally ignoring the preposterous media campaign to deny the people their voice.

Politics is all about argument and disagreement; it's the very soul of the matter.

For me, it was all about Brexit. What I meant was, I couldn't join a Party who's leader's key arguments didn't align with my way of thinking, i.e, leaving the European Union. That is why I couldn't join Cameron's Tories, Miliband's Labour and Clegg's Lib Dems and could consider joining May's Conservatives because her initial strong Brexit voice. If Corbyn openly supported leaving the European Union and thus backing up his voting record in the House of Commons, I would have considered the Labour Party as well.

I happen to prefer their education policy.

[Fred Perry]

Despite the demise of UKIP , it is they who achieved the Brexit Referendum .

At least they " say it things as they are " , rather than the double standards over the top , political correctness , rubbish E.G. from Diane Abbott , some might say !...

Yes , there are lots of illegal immigrants , that have come into the UK - Our Border Control force does not, at present, have ample sources to deal with this.

In many ways it is imperative , that UKIP gets a new Leader , this September, who is not too extreme , but has the welfare of the current UK citizens living here, at heart and is also welcoming to those who come to live here LEGALLY.

A strong UKIP leader also puts pressure on Theresa May , to deliver a proper Brexit , where things " are " beneficially different , from us remaining in the EU.

This does not necessarily mean I currently would vote UKIP , but many of us can switch political parties and the UK did vote to Leave !...

POLITICIANS SHOULD BE HELD MORE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY.

[Fred Perry]

Despite the demise of UKIP , it is they who achieved the Brexit Referendum .

At least they " say it things as they are " , rather than the double standards over the top , political correctness , rubbish E.G. from Diane Abbott , some might say !...

Yes , there are lots of illegal immigrants , that have come into the UK - Our Border Control force does not, at present, have ample sources to deal with this.

In many ways it is imperative , that UKIP gets a new Leader , this September, who is not too extreme , but has the welfare of the current UK citizens living here, at heart and is also welcoming to those who come to live here LEGALLY.

A strong UKIP leader also puts pressure on Theresa May , to deliver a proper Brexit , where things " are " beneficially different , from us remaining in the EU.

This does not necessarily mean I currently would vote UKIP , but many of us can switch political parties and the UK did vote to Leave !...

POLITICIANS SHOULD BE HELD MORE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY.

Once again...

" Politicians SHOULD be HELD more accountable for what they SAY / PROMISE " !... ( to entice voters , for their support ).

That means dismissal , for blatant lies.

[merse btpir]

I am a Trump fan, he was a much better option than Hilary Clinton. No doubt I will be abused for that, but I don't care. No President has ever had so much flak. He is a strong, no nonsense, straight talking President who is very popular here in the US. As I agree with the Republican platform more than I do the Democrat, I have decided to get involved in Politics here.

I've considered long and hard before responding to this Danny, but for all your lauding of Trump you need to be aware of just how dangerous he is and a threat to world peace.......

Trump is the very epitomy of those who confuse statesmanship and socially responsible politic with running a business; his delusion leads him to ride roughshod over protocol and disgrace the office of President of a Republic whereby he is in office to represent all of the people not some of the people. In the end, it was a simple hand gesture ~ Senator John McCain pointing his right index finger in a downward motion to register a no vote ~ that ruined his party's seven-year effort to repeal Obamacare........standing like Caesar at the Tribune signalling the end.

But in that signal in the early hours of this morning, the 80-year-old McCain also delivered a political gut-punch to Trump, a fellow Republican and a man he has clashed with repeatedly over the past two years.

McCain, who just last week was diagnosed with an aggressive brain cancer, dropped a hint on Tuesday that if his legislative demands were not met he was prepared to take on Trump in the dispute over how to replace parts of Obamacare with a Republican healthcare programme. “We are not the president’s subordinates. We are his equals," he said in an emotional speech to the Senate ~ his first since being diagnosed.

McCain's relations with Trump have been frosty for some time. At an election campaign appearance in Iowa in 2015, Trump responded to criticism from McCain by denigrating the senator's military service, which included 5 1/2-years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam. He was tortured while in captivity and is seen as a war hero by many Americans. "He's not a war hero," Trump told a gathering of religious conservatives. "He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured." arrogant prig that he is; this was a new low for the gutter inhabitant of the highest office in the land.

The following day, Trump said McCain's work on behalf of military veterans was "all talk no action." ~ well he got his action last night didn't he. Trump has weakened America's standing in world affairs, kowtowed to Russian President Vladimir Putin and yet a significant percentage of the American public can't see that?

Now we have the most unedifying street fighting between Trump's entourage, calling one another out; abusing one another with obscenities and not one of them knowing who will survive another night of madness as the Caligula of the White House raves in his state of unravelling mental stability.

You have the nuclear weapons of another madman pointed at your cities over there; I'd get the hell out of it if I were you Danny Boy!

It really does beggar all belief and if you want to make a career in politics young man; you want to set your standards way above this twitter bate that Trump has desecrated the office of President of the United States with.......it's an absolute disgrace!

[Fred Perry]

I thought this thread was about " The European Union: We're Out ...!! ".

It is not a thread about Donald Trump.

Phillip Hammond ( the Remainer ) appears to be using "stalling " tactics on us leaving the E.U.. If he remains in charge with Theresa May , we will probably get a really SOFT Brexit , where it will not be much difference to Staying In the E.U., but where we pay the EU , AROUND £ 81 Billion in the process !...

Riots on our streets would probably happen, if a proper Brexit does not materialise or there is a second Referendum.

F CK OFF Brussels .

[merse btpir]

I thought this thread was about " The European Union: We're Out ...!! ". It is not a thread about Donald Trump.

It is not, but Trump was brought into it by a regular contributor with political ambitions; so pay attention! :Oops:

Phillip Hammond ( the Remainer ) appears to be using "stalling " tactics on us leaving the E.U.. If he remains in charge with Theresa May , we will probably get a really SOFT Brexit , where it will not be much difference to Staying In the E.U., but where we pay the EU , AROUND £ 81 Billion in the process !...

Exactly the point I have been making and the reason I asked the question I did about are Brexiteers getting the sort of Brexit they thought they would get because the uncouth have been the driving force behind this country's own 'Tea Party' phenomenon which expresses the wish of the majority without having the intellect to bring it about.

Riots on our streets would probably happen, if a proper Brexit does not materialise or there is a second Referendum. F CK OFF Brussels .

No they won't! Many who voted 'Leave' will be glad to allow a return to the status quo now they see the reality of what they were voting for

The paucity of your insult to Brussels is representative of the low IQ of the argument you try to present......

Is it not obvious that the only occurances of riots on our streets comes when the social injustice of the Police taking summary and discriminatory action against citizens in multi-ethnic communities occurs, who then gather together and protest violently? Brixton, Toxteth, Winson Green, Tottenham, Hackney this weekend. Areas where communities are multi-ethnic and making a decent fist of life in deprived circumstances where (if you only went there and took notice) there is a huge effort to generate a local drive of enterprise, social responsibility and community......you don't find those areas returning any UKIP representation!

The weakness of Brexit is that is driven by self interest, represented by politicians with self interest as a first priority over social interest and prone to swap parties at the drop of a hat.........the Neil Hamiltons, Douglas Carswells, Nigel Farages, Aaron Banks and Danny Harveys of this world. When when they've lost interest in taking advantage of the gullibility of a poster using the ridiculous nom de plume of a tennis shirt; dump the likes of you and move on to the next phase of their self interest.

You want to listen to Phillip Hammond matey because what he is saying is precisely what you are going to get! :rules:

[Plainmoor78]

Your more likely to get rioting in the streets when after brexit it dawns on the brexiters that they are not going to get an immigrant free society and they also see their jobs and living standards go to pot as the UK economy struggles to adapt to being outside the single market.

[Fred Perry]

The EU has driven down wages in certain employment sectors like mine , where we can't do business , when English cannot be spoken fluently , from those coming from the EU. In addition , " Health Tourism " in our NHS is still rife.

Basically the majority voted out , because the UK was becoming a " soft touch " .

Many were attracted to come from the EU, by the high wages - some still send back the likes of child benefit to their home countries.

I have nothing against multi - culturilism , but this needs to properly CONTROLLED.

Our NHS , roads , housing struggles as it is.

I don''t necesssrily support UKIP , but we voted to Leave.

If we voted to Remain and there was a second Referendum to leave or Remain basically became Leave , equally people would become very unhappy.

Regarding riots , I note there have disturbances in London , due to a black teenager being killed.

Both the left and the right have " history " for causing trouble in the UK.

By the way , Corbyn , by all accounts want to leave the EU , despite the " free " Student fee con , in the last Election .

[merse btpir]

The EU has driven down wages in certain employment sectors like mine , where we can't do business , when English cannot be spoken fluently , from those coming from the EU. In addition , " Health Tourism " in our NHS is still rife. Basically the majority voted out , because the UK was becoming a " soft touch " . Many were attracted to come from the EU, by the high wages - some still send back the likes of child benefit to their home countries.....

You say many voted out , 'because the UK was becoming a 'soft touch '; you need to avail yourself of the FACTS once more.........

The UK has far from the most generous social security system in Europe, both in terms of benefit levels and overall spending. My former partner would tell you that in France, for example, unemployment benefits are considerably higher for most people than they are in the UK, while contribution conditions are, if anything, somewhat weaker; a French teacher or banker losing their job in London might well be shocked by how little they would be entitled to here.

So, overall, the picture is mixed, but certainly some migrants ~ especially those from the relatively poor new member states ~ do better here than they would at home. But that doesn't mean British taxpayers are the losers from migration. Quite the opposite. All the evidence suggests that migrants ~ especially migrants from the new EU member states ~ are net contributors to the public purse, not a drain. The most comprehensive study on this topic found that the latter paid in via taxes about 30% more than they cost our public services. In particular, they were far less likely to claim benefits and tax credits, and far less likely to live in social housing. The substantial Polish community in my locality live in self acquired housing rather than 'social housing'; the majority of non UK 'migrants' living in socially provided housing are those from outside the EU such as those granted asylum status and refugees from war........would you (as a human being) deny that to them?

I know what I'm talking about here 'Fred' ~ as a person who received very practical help and advice from a project for homeless people as my relationship was coming to an end I have repaid my 'debt' to them by engaging in their voluntary work amongst those needing their services.

Focusing more specifically on the benefit system, the contrast becomes even starker. There are half a million EU citizens who are not in work, but some are retired, and some out of the labour market for other reasons. In fact, employment rates for EU citizens ~ especially those from the new member states ~ are considerably higher than for the UK-born.

And even those who aren't working are considerably less likely than those born in the UK to claim benefits. According to publicly accessible figures from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP): of the roughly 1.8 million people from elsewhere in the EU of working age, about 90,000 are claiming an "out of work benefit", or about 5%. That compares with about 13% for natives. Equally, migrants from outside the EU are much less likely to claim benefits than natives. And as for Bulgarians and Romanians, (although there are already at least 140,000 in the UK) neither shows up in the top 20 countries of origin for foreign benefit claimants, suggesting the numbers to date are minimal.

What about other public services? NIESR research for the government's Migration Advisory Committee found that migrants imposed less than proportionate costs on the health and education system. This is mostly a natural consequence of the fact that migrants are more likely to be young and healthy, and health spending goes overwhelmingly on the old and sick. Of course migrants will, over time, age too (although many EU migrants are likely to return to their countries of origin) but the net balance over time is still likely to be positive.

So, on average, "benefit tourism" (or indeed "health tourism") doesn't appear to be the significant economic problem that you claim ~ migrants, including EU migrants, more than pay for themselves. Without migration, our fiscal position would be even worse, and public services even more stretched for cash. But that doesn't mean that there aren't cases of real abuse, nor does it mean it's unreasonable for people to think there's something wrong with, for example, people coming here but claiming child benefit ~ at UK rates, and paid for by UK taxpayers ~ for children in other countries where the cost of living is lower; but you have to factor in that many of those taxpayers are themselves in fact EU citizens.

One response to this problem would be a return to the "contributory principle", where benefits would be much more closely related to national insurance contributions that we had before, but neither leaving the EU or remaining in the EU effects this decision.. There are good arguments for and against this ~ but it would be a major reversal of the policy pursued by governments of all parties for at least the last 30 years, largely in attempts to save money 'Brexit' would have no significant influence on that either way.

Ever since Margaret Thatcher abolished the earnings-related supplement to unemployment benefit in 1982, the contributory principle has become less and less a part of the UK welfare system. Indeed, the largest single welfare savings measure so far introduced by this government was the time-limiting of contributory employment and support allowance, which will save £2bn per year and in effect means the end of the largest remaining part of the working-age benefit system that could meaningfully be described as contributions-based.

Now there are good arguments for and against contributory benefits, but reversing the tide of history on this to deal with a relatively minor set of issues looks like a very large sledgehammer directed at a very small nut and as I say; Brexit has nothing to do with that. So although you say (and probably quite rightly) why many Brexiteers voted the way they did; what I am saying is that many of them voted in ignorance of the actualite and because of urban myth and UKIP rhetoric.

[merse btpir]

Regarding riots , I note there have disturbances in London , due to a black teenager being killed. Both the left and the right have " history " for causing trouble in the UK.

This has nothing to do with 'left or right' but social injustice and community anger.

As I stated; the overwhelming root cause of street protests that turn violent in this country occur after deaths in police custody or because of police apprehensions........Dalston is a case in point and you should note that one of the prominent people calling for calm and of the "importance of peace on the streets, violence is not the answer" being the MP for Hackney North & Stoke Newington Dianne Abbott; frequently derided by the right.

The shadow home secretary ~ herself at the protest ~ called for calm earlier on Saturday after the assembly in east London on Friday night turned violent. Ms Abbott referred to the "understandable anger" of people in the deceased Rashan Charles' community but said demonstrations "must be peaceful". A large gang of protesters ~ many of whom had their faces covered ~ clashed with riot police as tensions came to a head in Dalston on Friday and Saturday.......another demonstration is taking place right now. The group of masked demonstrators blocked busy Kingsland Road before hurling bottles, stones and other objects at police and starting a fire in the middle of the road.

Stoke Newington Police Station ~ the focal point of the protests ~ has long been regarded as a corrupt and institutionally racist centre of operations by significant numbers of the local populace. Friday night's protest turned violent when scores of missiles were launched at police as they attempted to disperse the group rather than someone accountable choose to address the crowd in an almost exact repeat of their arrogance over the death of Mark Duggan when a peaceful assembly ~ this time outside Tottenham Police Station ~ was once again the target of police attempts to disperse rather than engage and all hell broke loose not only in the immediate area, but the capital and country too...........lessons never appear to be learned. 

The Home Secretary Amber Rudd has been conspicuous by her absence, as has the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Cressida Dick .

[Fred Perry]

Diane Abbott often plays the " race card " , where as a white person saying similar things in " reverse " would be perceived as being racist !...

Labour " conned " voter at the last General Election , in a ploy for a SOFTEN Brexit.

Most people working in Education read the Guardian ( not exactly beutral on their political stance ) !... They are not that bothered about ILLEGAL students , as it keeps their jobs safe and UK education receives funding from the EU.

Alot of teachers /,lecturers tend to live in nice " leafy suburb s ".

Many people in Brum from non UK origin , voted to leave .

How do I know ?.

I work for a leading opnion poll company .

[merse btpir]

Diane Abbott often plays the " race card " , where as a white person saying similar things in " reverse " would be perceived as being racist !...
Labour " conned " voter at the last General Election , in a ploy for a SOFTEN Brexit.
Most people working in Education read the Guardian ( not exactly beutral on their political stance ) !... They are not that bothered about ILLEGAL students , as it keeps their jobs safe and UK education receives funding from the EU.
Alot of teachers /,lecturers tend to live in nice " leafy suburb s ".

You really invalidate anything sensible you post on this subject with a lot of hackneyed, tired old claptrap.

Nothing that Ms Abbott said in her statement to residents on Kingsland Road could be perceived as racist; quite what the phrase 'similar things in " reverse " would be perceived as being racist' is suppose to mean God only knows.

Perhaps you could come up with what you perceive as her 'playing the racist card' before and lay it down on here for discussion instead of making throwaway statements on here with no validity.

In what way did Labour 'con' anyone voting at the last General Election in a ploy for a softer Brexit? What they have said is that it accepts the referendum result and a Labour government would put the national interest first......... prioritise jobs and living standards. Is that a 'con' then? I would say it is setting out their stall in their manifesto for voters to disseminate and form an opinion over.

I would agree with London Mayor Sadiq Khan who has said: “There is an issue on the doorstep, which is people are unclear about the Labour position [on Brexit] nationally. Everyone’s clear about my position in London, you know where you stand with the Tories ~ extreme hard Brexit ~ you know where you stand with the Lib Dems: they wish the referendum had never happened and want a second one." 

I am a member of the Labour Party and I am disappointed in their lack of clarity and their unwillingness as a party to stand up for the 48% of the electorate who expressed their wish to remain in the EU on the basis that whilst they have never expressed any desire to not stand for something because it has a minority support in the nation before why should they now? Why should they not campaign as a party to try and influence those of the 52% who wanted to leave to change their opinion in hindsight?

But that is me; not the recordable majority of the party membership as a whole and that is how the system works.

........and what's this "A lot of teachers /,lecturers tend to live in nice leafy suburbs " all about; is this how you go about your business within 'a leading opinion poll company'? and "Many people in Brum from non UK origin , voted to leave" ~ explain the relevance of that.

[Dave]

The thing is, the remain campaign and their supporters are now getting more, and more desperate. Staunch remainer Tony Blair's own institute for global change commissioned a poll, where 56 % said they would be happy for the UK to leave the EU with out a deal in place, and 75 % said they thought our country's immigration policy was to open, there's no doubt , there's has been a further narrow shift towards vote leave amongst the British people, suggesting the likely result if the referendum was re-run, would be another narrow victory for vote leave.

So project fear is being ramped up. All negative news being put front and centre, any positive news ignored, we saw stories like, British holiday makers could only get 0.88 cents to the pound in airports, but the same news stories neglected to say, the bone idle, lazy or stupid holiday makers who couldn't be bothered to shop around, could have got 1.13 euro's to the pound on the same day at various retail outlets.

The new story, British planes won't be able to take off after Brexit, my god, just how desperate are they becoming. We only have to look at how the British aerospace and tourisms industry is worth to the global economy to realise, it will not take minutes, but seconds for a new, and relevant agreement to be put in place.

The remain campaign continue to mock, ridicule, and just generally refer to leave supporters as ignorant and thick every time they express an opinion, why, because they do not want the British people armed with to much knowledge.

They don't want us to know about single market tariff's, placed on good goods and services coming into member states from outside Europe, these of course would be slashed after Brexit, of course meaning that certain goods and services may well be cheaper to British consumer, but I'll just dream on.

They don't want you to know about the IMF's growth forecast's as posted by SG, that show the British economy is likely to out perform that of France and Italy, the 2nd and 3rd largest in the Euorzone, and only trialing Germany's the largest by 0.1 %, if to many people knew this, we wouldn't believe all this economic doom and gloom.

They don't want us to know anything about a recent CBI report, showing British manufacturing output at it's highest level since 1999, order books at there highest since 1988, manufacturing sector, currently employing people, Brexit was supposed to be costing us jobs, that's why it's another story swept under the carpet. They don't want you know about Amazon, Google, and many other companies committing to the UK.

They don't want to many people knowing, German car manufacturer BWM chose to build it's new Mini in Oxford, rather than Germany or Holland.

They don't want to many people knowing, the German chambers of commerce is already reporting, Brexit is damaging the German economy, just as some of us said all along, that it would, backed up calls from the free democratic party of Germany, for a special Brexit team to protect their country's vital interests, so if we knew all of this, would the British people believe all the nonsense spilled out, that the EU holds all the cards, they clearly don't.

I think talk of a transitional three period after 2019 just makes common sense, if we have to wait an extra three years to get free from the EU, so be it, there always was going be a need for compromise, and of course we need to protect our own interests.

Reaching out for the status quo, because we're scared of change, reaching out for the single market, believed to be worth 12 trillion pounds, when there's a global market our country can tap into worth a reported 40 trillion is nonsense.

[Fred Perry]

The thing is, the remain campaign and their supporters are now getting more, and more desperate. Staunch remainer Tony Blair's own institute for global change commissioned a poll, where 56 % said they would be happy for the UK to leave the EU with out a deal in place, and 75 % said they thought our country's immigration policy was to open, there's no doubt , there's has been a further narrow shift towards vote leave amongst the British people, suggesting the likely result if the referendum was re-run, would be another narrow victory for vote leave.

So project fear is being ramped up. All negative news being put front and centre, any positive news ignored, we saw stories like, British holiday makers could only get 0.88 cents to the pound in airports, but the same news stories neglected to say, the bone idle, lazy or stupid holiday makers who couldn't be bothered to shop around, could have got 1.13 euro's to the pound on the same day at various retail outlets.

The new story, British planes won't be able to take off after Brexit, my god, just how desperate are they becoming. We only have to look at how the British aerospace and tourisms industry is worth to the global economy to realise, it will not take minutes, but seconds for a new, and relevant agreement to be put in place.

The remain campaign continue to mock, ridicule, and just generally refer to leave supporters as ignorant and thick every time they express an opinion, why, because they do not want the British people armed with to much knowledge.

They don't want us to know about single market tariff's, placed on good goods and services coming into member states from outside Europe, these of course would be slashed after Brexit, of course meaning that certain goods and services may well be cheaper to British consumer, but I'll just dream on.

They don't want you to know about the IMF's growth forecast's as posted by SG, that show the British economy is likely to out perform that of France and Italy, the 2nd and 3rd largest in the Euorzone, and only trialing Germany's the largest by 0.1 %, if to many people knew this, we wouldn't believe all this economic doom and gloom.

They don't want us to know anything about a recent CBI report, showing British manufacturing output at it's highest level since 1999, order books at there highest since 1988, manufacturing sector, currently employing people, Brexit was supposed to be costing us jobs, that's why it's another story swept under the carpet. They don't want you know about Amazon, Google, and many other companies committing to the UK.

They don't want to many people knowing, German car manufacturer BWM chose to build it's new Mini in Oxford, rather than Germany or Holland.

They don't want to many people knowing, the German chambers of commerce is already reporting, Brexit is damaging the German economy, just as some of us said all along, that it would, backed up calls from the free democratic party of Germany, for a special Brexit team to protect their country's vital interests, so if we knew all of this, would the British people believe all the nonsense spilled out, that the EU holds all the cards, they clearly don't.

I think talk of a transitional three period after 2019 just makes common sense, if we have to wait an extra three years to get free from the EU, so be it, there always was going be a need for compromise, and of course we need to protect our own interests.

Reaching out for the status quo, because we're scared of change, reaching out for the single market, believed to be worth 12 trillion pounds, when there's a global market our country can tap into worth a reported 40 trillion is nonsense.

WELL SAID.

The " remainers " are getting desperate.

The voting age in England and Wales is going to stay at 18.

Diane Abbott often plays the " race card " , but appears to have acted maturely on this latest black teenage murder in London.

You only have to look up her on the internet , to discover , she often implies everyone ( other than black people ) are racists , when black people are killed or have committed a crime.

There are good and bad in ALL Ethnic members of UK society.

[Fred Perry]

Around 70% of the UK things immigration is a problem.

Not just white people ssying it.

No , this is not a " racist " statement.

It will say this , on internet.

Education and the BBC in particular ahould be neutral on their EU stance.

Young people can be easily lead by biased teachers , who tend to be brainwashed by what the Guardian says.


Project fear has not really materialised e g. Interest rates are still low.