Torquay in the Prem - Dream or Disaster?

[AustrianAndyGull]

It has been done, clubs such as Swansea, Blackpool, Wigan and Hull who were once wallowing in the pit of the bottom tier of English football managed to somehow achieve Premiership status. Ok, clubs like Wigan had a benefactor who had a dream and spent his way to the top division whilst teams like Hull and Blackpool were relatively conservative in the championship before experiencing unexpected play off success but could it ever happen to Torquay United?

Technically it could but feasibly it won't. That is not really the question i want to put out there to you lot, all of you will say NO anyway so it would be pointless me doing that but my hypothetical question is this:

If circumstances changed and we had the opportunity to get to the Premier League - would you be happy to see Torquay play at the very top or would it curdle your blood even contemplating rubbing shoulders with the very people who are killing the game?

My view on the Premier League is pure hatred, i will watch Match of the Day and other games but only because i love football. I stopped my Sky Sports subscription as i didn't want to contribute even more money to the select few who have already got plenty so that they may waste millions in wages on players who don't even play and the ones that do are always f*cking moaning and whinging about something trivial. Premier League footballers make me sick to my stomach with their constant petulance and fake morals. ( Joey Barton slagging the FA off and football in general as though some martyr but still choosing to carry on playing and accepting the cash - prick ).

They fly to games as short as 50 miles distance, they wear snoods and gloves yet have short sleeves, they get paid fortunes which i could accept if they earned it every week like Messi and didn't hide behind 10 others if they didn't fancy it that day, most don't so they are taking the p*ss. They don't care about the fans and i doubt some even care about playing football - it's all money and status to them. Rickie Lambert, Kevin Phillips, Grant Holt - these are the players that 10 or 15 years ago made up the vast proportion of Premier League footballers, players who had earned their stripes in the lower leagues and gradually made progress into a top level striker. They KNEW what it was like to play on wet and windy november nights at Bury for a few quid. Today's spoilt f*ckers can't even comprehend what 'real' raw football is all about as they have been filtered and cosseted through club's youth systems and haven't had to work or endure any hard knocks. They go from school to 20 years old at some clubs never having made a first team appearance but stil getting paid miles more than Joe Oastler or Michael Poke. How can they appreciate this? More's the point, how can this be healthy for them and acceptable to the rest of football?

Premier players have no contact with the fans anymore, yeah it's fine for Rio Ferdinand to have more followers on Twitter than can fit inside the Olypic Stadium on a convention for stalkers but would he go down the local boozer for a meal and a drink and mingle? Would he stand around the car park chatting to fans or quickly emerge from a shadowy £150,000 Bentley with blacked out windows and sneak off into the players entrance? They don't give a f*ck and they have no appreciation of real life. I'm serious, most of these players are deluded and their feet have been so far off the ground from an early age that they must be entering the orbit of Saturn very shortly.

In short, i f*cking HATE the Premier League, i hate players like Balotelli and couldn't care less if he got knocked over by a lorry. What does he do? Swan around the pitch when things aren't going right and gets arse on when he gets subbed. Doesn't even celebrate when he scores! Everytime he scores a goal he accomplishes something that millions of kids, teens, lads in their 20's and 30's, men and grandads would have an arm off to be able to experience and he just sticks an arm in the air, looks at the floor and pulls his top up to reveal another banal, trivial message on a t-shirt that just proves players like him are a total waste of oxygen. He even plays the sympathy card saying he had a bad upbringing. Oh bless, so have lots of us but we have to grit our f*cking teeth and get by on £250 a week ( or less sadly ) you total f*ckwit! You represent your country too! Just look at what you have, appreciate it and enjoy it as it won't be there for ever. Just ain't got the brains to realise this. Balotelli isn't alone. Tevez, Rooney chucking the toys out to get more money, how much more money do you need FFS! Just concentrate on being Man U and Englands best ever player and get on with it. He has had a decade in an England shirt and nobody has been more disappointing. Achieved nothing from a personal perspective as an international footballer and yet he wants more. Would you rather have 3 Rooney's or 1 Messi? Messi hasn't achieved any success in international football either but he gives it everything each time he pulls on the blue and white stripes. Messi is worthy of all the money and plaudits because he is truly world class , performs every week and considering the amount of hammer he gets from opponents generally gets up and gets on with it.

Managers do my bloody box in too, Kenny Dalglish et al. Get asked a few questions they don't like so they start crying. If you're a manager and you aren't doing very well then you are going to be asked awkward questions you stupid tw*ts! What do you expect?! If you don't like it either start doing well which is what you are paid to do or pack in your job and let someone else have a go. Grown men with brains in their arses, unf*ckinbelievable!! Managers who have a go at the refs all the time as a cover up for their team being sh*t again. We can see right through it you thick c*nts!

Champions League money is more important than success. The whole thing is putrid and diseased and i wouldn't want Torquay United anywhere within a million miles of it. I love going to watch Torquay and on the whole we are generally a sh*t team both to watch, especially under Ling and in terms of success on the pitch. I still go and watch whenever i can though and i don't complain like Chelsea fans for example that they haven't won in three games or something. Premiership fans in general have little sense of reality, most of them have no intentio of going to watch their club live in the flesh and the one thing that REALLY REALLY f*cks me off is their total lack of knowledge on any English football that isn't premier league. You take the average Premier fan at a random game and ask him to name all 92 league grounds and i reckon they'd get about 40 right. Ignorant f*ckers!!!!!!!


If Torquay were a Premier League club we would end up getting completely ripped off with ticket prices and everything else matchday based and do you think the prices would come down when we were relegated into the Championship? Of course not. Some championship clubs who were previously in the Prem are still charging Prem prices.

Anyway, i needed to have that rant as it's been festering and what i read about Balotelli today just made me angry. If Torquay got to the Championship in my lifetime THAT would be my dream but if they miraculously took a step further i would hope we would be run properly like we are now and not spend what we haven't got. This would mean immediate relegation and we could all be happy again. Being a fan of a Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U, Man City et al must be sooooooo dull, going to a game expecting to win every week. The beauty of supporting Torquay is that we go to a game not having ANY inkling whatsoever what is to come. Well, i know sometimes when we play away that we're probably gonna have 1 shot in 90 minutes, play like dummies and lose. :na:

Would YOU, as a loyal Torquay fan be pleased if we hit the big time or do you feel as passionate about resenting the Prem as me and don't want us to ever go down that route if it were somehow possible?

[united09]

For me its more the Premier league as a whole that I dislike and not really the players. I agree that PL players are paid well over the top and that money put into grass roots football would do wonders but to tarnish all of the players the same would be wrong. I think there are a fare few that do a lot of good and are complete opposites to the players you mention. I would thought that a good hand full of players even in leagues one and two couldn't care less about the club, fans etc and are a up there own arse and Torquay have probably had a hand full during the past.

What I dont like is that sponsership has just distroyed top flight football. Look at Serbia and the fine they recieved for "inproper conduct" (No mention of racism), compared to Nicklas Bendtners fine for showing a companies name after scoring. This shows to me how much sponsers have introduced crazy amounts of money to top flight football in general and not just the PL. People talk about salary caps but that would have to happen world wide, what players are going to stay in the PL with a salary cap. The money would just end up in someone elses back pocket.

To awnser your question, it would be fantastic for Torquay and Devon in general to have a PL economy wise, but to have to put up with all the crap that comes with it i.e high ticket prices (a cheap ticket for Arsenal is £62?), all seater staduims, prawn sandwich fans and Sky putting your fixture list together. So at present, I would say no.

[ferrarilover]

I've written on this subject before, and my feelings seem to mirror Andy's in both content and strength (the same, presumably, cannot be said of our blood alcohol level, if his usual behaviour is anything to go by). I'd stop going if we made it to the PL, and probably a little bit before that. I have no interest in paying £50 or £60 to watch a bunch of prima donnas swan about, not giving a toss. I can do that at home. I go to Torquay because it is the very antithesis of the Premier League. How I delight in being described as "tin-pot" (it carries a special significance when the 'insult' comes from the likes of Bristol Useless). Yeah, wonderful, tin-pot to the end, that means, essentially, that we are a real football club, we play the game properly, we run our club properly, we go nuts for the third round draw, we cheer when we win and don't when we lose but we do not have a tantrum every time we go a goal down (are you listening, Man City 'supporters'?).

This could go on forever, but I fear you all already know exactly what I mean.

Matt.

[royalgull]

I only have to look at my local club Reading to realise how much I hate that league and modern football generally. So far Leagues 1 and 2 have survived the modern football disease with the exceptions of goal music but that has an easy remedy. Other clubs are so sick from this disease that's it's now terminal, Reading are one of those.

I remember going to Elm Park with my Dad quite a few times, same old faces/characters used to stand in the same spots game by game, always a be a freindly hello. Even the move to the new ground you still saw quite a few of them, 3 of them were in the row in front of us. Over time they drifted away, so did we and now that club is dead, replaced by a modern brand. A soulless/faceless experience where you aren't greeted by a 'hello Ian' on the phone of the Ticket Office, but 'what's your customer number' from the 'Customer Centre'?

goal music, nowhere less than £30 a ticket nevermind all the extra costs, no where to have a beer for less than £4.20, no spontaneous chants or atmosphere is allowed it's done by handing out plastic sticks or song sheets. I think what has tipped me over the edge and ended my affinity with that club in it's entirety (it's been on the decline for years) is their most recent policy.

A club where the chairman has for years talked about the 'community' has now joined up with viagogo and I quote in an email a mate of mine recived 'can't make a match, sell your ticket with our official partner viagogo for up to 200% of the normal price'

Doesn't that just make you sick to your stomach? A club that has talked about community that has always had a very loyal if small fanbase, in these economic times now seriously doesn't care who sits in the ground as long as they can make a nice big fat profit off of it via a proven ticket tout, it's illegal to sell the ticket yourself to a friend or a family relative who can't usually make a game, but go via these crooks and you can sell it to anyone and they encourage a nice inflated price, you get some of it back once you've given them their commision for doing something you could have done in 5 minutes yourself. The only language clubs like Reading speak is money, they are in many ways worse than the Man Utd's and Arsenal's of this world because those old clubs were sold off to the highest bidder years ago. It's the new ones that are the ones that are rotten to the core.

This is all because of the Premier League and modern football. Clubs struggle every year/face financial ruin in some cases chasing a place at the fat cats table. Modern football is summed up where Arsene Wenger and Arsenal constanstly refer to finishing 4th as some sort of badge of honour. Finishing 4th in the LEague is now more important than winning either the FA Cup or League Cup, how have we got to this?!

In short if Torquay ever got to the Premier League that would be it for me.

[ferrarilover]

I only have to look at my local club Reading to realise how much I hate that league and modern football generally. So far Leagues 1 and 2 have survived the modern football disease with the exceptions of goal music but that has an easy remedy. Other clubs are so sick from this disease that's it's now terminal, Reading are one of those.

I remember going to Elm Park with my Dad quite a few times, same old faces/characters used to stand in the same spots game by game, always a be a freindly hello. Even the move to the new ground you still saw quite a few of them, 3 of them were in the row in front of us. Over time they drifted away, so did we and now that club is dead, replaced by a modern brand. A soulless/faceless experience where you aren't greeted by a 'hello Ian' on the phone of the Ticket Office, but 'what's your customer number' from the 'Customer Centre'?

goal music, nowhere less than £30 a ticket nevermind all the extra costs, no where to have a beer for less than £4.20, no spontaneous chants or atmosphere is allowed it's done by handing out plastic sticks or song sheets. I think what has tipped me over the edge and ended my affinity with that club in it's entirety (it's been on the decline for years) is their most recent policy.

A club where the chairman has for years talked about the 'community' has now joined up with viagogo and I quote in an email a mate of mine recived 'can't make a match, sell your ticket with our official partner viagogo for up to 200% of the normal price'

Doesn't that just make you sick to your stomach? A club that has talked about community that has always had a very loyal if small fanbase, in these economic times now seriously doesn't care who sits in the ground as long as they can make a nice big fat profit off of it via a proven ticket tout, it's illegal to sell the ticket yourself to a friend or a family relative who can't usually make a game, but go via these crooks and you can sell it to anyone and they encourage a nice inflated price, you get some of it back once you've given them their commision for doing something you could have done in 5 minutes yourself. The only language clubs like Reading speak is money, they are in many ways worse than the Man Utd's and Arsenal's of this world because those old clubs were sold off to the highest bidder years ago. It's the new ones that are the ones that are rotten to the core.

This is all because of the Premier League and modern football. Clubs struggle every year/face financial ruin in some cases chasing a place at the fat cats table. Modern football is summed up where Arsene Wenger and Arsenal constanstly refer to finishing 4th as some sort of badge of honour. Finishing 4th in the LEague is now more important than winning either the FA Cup or League Cup, how have we got to this?!

In short if Torquay ever got to the Premier League that would be it for me.

Post of the Month right there, and probably a MOTM vote as well. Perfectly put. Why is it that we always seem to get the best posts when the subject of the God-awful Premier League comes up?

Matt.

[yellow]

Some good responses. I too side with the reverse snobbery idea that premiership fans are to be pitied, as they are being taken for mugs, and fleeced by corporate greed.

I much prefer being taken for a mug by local businessmen and being relieved of more modest amounts.

Little do they realise that I know that they know that I am a mug, and that I’m going to keep supporting TUFC anyway... Serves them right!

[brooker]

i look forward to football weekends more than almost anything else in my life. Its not just the 90 mins on the pop, its getting a hello from various people in boots, meeting up with mates for a pint and a chat about United, and a bag of cardboard chips that tastes more of nostalgia than potato.

The worst scenario for me would be not being able to afford a season ticket, and having to enter a lottery to get into a game. How can you feel like a true supporter of a club when you can't get into the ground because some rich d**k has arranged a corporate day out for members of his company who are there for the a la carte menu and champagne, don't know the offside rule, will only see the last twenty of the second half, and will alert a steward because some bled dry working class man on the other side of an aisle said bugger?

I also would dread to be stuck in row z-bb, miles away from the action, losing all notion of the physical element of the game, and having to keep an eye on the big screen to see which yellow speck hit the ball in the net. In a smaller ground you almost feel like you're affecting the game, spurring on your boys, winding up the opposition players, and celebrating a goal only yards away from the scorer.
Getting promoted is obviously a great feeling, it's the main aim of a successful team and can be an awesome way to finish a season, but by no means is the be all and end all. A season of football is great because of the individual matches throughout the duration, (some great and some god-awful) and not because of the final league position of the team in May.
It's great to see us in contention every year, and some of the tail end games of the last couple of seasons have been hugely fun, but if Torquay are still in League 2 for the next twenty years, I'l still be here, still be able to afford to see my team (let's hope at least!), and ultimately still be a pretty happy Gull.

[stevegull]

i look forward to football weekends more than almost anything else in my life. Its not just the 90 mins on the pop, its getting a hello from various people in boots, meeting up with mates for a pint and a chat about United, and a bag of cardboard chips that tastes more of nostalgia than potato.

The worst scenario for me would be not being able to afford a season ticket, and having to enter a lottery to get into a game. How can you feel like a true supporter of a club when you can't get into the ground because some rich d**k has arranged a corporate day out for members of his company who are there for the a la carte menu and champagne, don't know the offside rule, will only see the last twenty of the second half, and will alert a steward because some bled dry working class man on the other side of an aisle said bugger?

I also would dread to be stuck in row z-bb, miles away from the action, losing all notion of the physical element of the game, and having to keep an eye on the big screen to see which yellow speck hit the ball in the net. In a smaller ground you almost feel like you're affecting the game, spurring on your boys, winding up the opposition players, and celebrating a goal only yards away from the scorer.
Getting promoted is obviously a great feeling, it's the main aim of a successful team and can be an awesome way to finish a season, but by no means is the be all and end all. A season of football is great because of the individual matches throughout the duration, (some great and some god-awful) and not because of the final league position of the team in May.
It's great to see us in contention every year, and some of the tail end games of the last couple of seasons have been hugely fun, but if Torquay are still in League 2 for the next twenty years, I'l still be here, still be able to afford to see my team (let's hope at least!), and ultimately still be a pretty happy Gull.

Top comment.

I particularly like your reference to the small size of the stadium and the proximity to the pitch. You feel like you can affect the action - I know in reality the effect may be minimal - but I just like yelling at an opposition corner-taker! Banter between the players and fans if also great at our level with less (not none) mindless idiots that throw stuff onto the pitch and punch goalkeepers.

For example I loved in the Aldershot game earlier this year when Guy Branston went down under a challenge and took some stick from the pop side and then proceeded to approach them and 'rev them up' by acting as their conductor and making them louder. Good, light-hearted banter between a former player and the fans that once applauded him. If any Premier League player tried to do this against a former club I am certain all manor of objects would be hurled in his direction and there would be an inquest as to why the fans threw objects and why the player approached them.

[MidDevon]

Ticket pricing higher up the leagues is something of an urban myth. You can actually watch higher league football at much less than the cost of a ticket at Plainmoor

Whenever I speak about Torquay to friends who watch other teams they are always surprised at how much it costs to get in.

Wigan Athletic for example are only charging £25 to see the home match againt Arsenal, £20 for the home match against Sunderland and just £10 for the FA CUP match against Bournmouth

Coventry v Shrewsbury is £18

Blackburn v Bristol City (2 Championship sides in the FA CUP) is just £10

There are many many other examples of teams trying to fill their stadiums


....OK Torquay is isolated, but perhaps pricing continues to be a major reason why the ground is only 1/3rd full most of the season.

I am more than happy for the premier league to get a bashing, but fans in league 2 are probably treated worse than most premiership supporters in terms of value.

[lucy6lucy]

With regards to season ticket pricing, a bloke was telling me his Wigan season ticket cost him £240. I am sure we are dearer than that. So not all PL clubs are rip off merchants. But I still hate the PL. But whilst people are still prepared to pay stupid ammounts to go games(wigan excluded!) And continue to pay sky for subscription to sky sports, clubs will not change. What we need is for 1 of the big 6 to go under and let's see how that would change things, if Roman was to leave Chelsea, which is quite feasible what would they do?

Anyway going back to original post question, it has to be a dream for us gulls, it just won't happen. We would need a new ground, bigger Fan base and Money. I would rather we get playoffs every year and see what they bring

[MidDevon]

It's not just Wigan Athletic, clubs all around the country are reducing prices to try and fill their stadiums. The only clubs keeping prices sky high are those such as Liverpool and Manchaester United who sell out each week.

I would actually say it is Division 4 where prices are kept artifically high when compared to demand, few teams play in front of more than 4,000 at our level and those attendances are likely to stay low as long as other clubs offer better deals.

Seats are available over Christmas and the New Year at

Aston Villa v Wigan @ £20
Aston Villa v Ipswich @ £15
Birmingham v Burnley @ £16
Millwall v Preston @ £15
Colchester v Swindon @ 18

as I said previously I could add many many more...in fact almost all clubs have matches with lower prices than we have to pay for a seat.

I do not especially like what Karen Brady stands for but was fortunate enough to meet her at a business function several years ago when she was at Birmingham City. Her view was that you had 21 chances (or "events") in which to maximise profits at a football club and each "event" should be treated differently to ensure you maximise sales whilst maintaining your brand.

So importatnt was it to Karen Brady that she would have a day long meeting 6 weeks before each match to discuss what could be done, try new ideas and ensure Birmingham City was doing as well as it could at each event.

Many teams are starting to run their clubs very much in this way to bring a bit of excitment back into their club. At the end of the day if your barnd is so big (Manchester United) you have to make less effort to bring in the money than if you are running Birmingham City or even little old Torquay United

[stevegull]

A great discussion Andy and some good responses so far even if I don't entirely agree with some of the opinions.

I would like to ask those who would not be happy if the mighty gulls soared to the Premier League whether it is a dislike of the Premier League as a whole or what you think it could do to those who run our club?

Surely if our club stays true to its routes and loyal to the fans who have supported them for so long (by offerring discounted season tickets to those that had them for previous season, for example) then surely we could become a beacon for small, well-run clubs all over the country. Much like Blackpool did. Holloway's men went into the Premier League with their fairly small ground and football league journeymen and tried to attack anyone who came to play them. The fans were just happy to be there. Wouldn't you be?

[Plymouth Gull]

It's not just Wigan Athletic, clubs all around the country are reducing prices to try and fill their stadiums. The only clubs keeping prices sky high are those such as Liverpool and Manchaester United who sell out each week.

I would actually say it is Division 4 where prices are kept artifically high when compared to demand, few teams play in front of more than 4,000 at our level and those attendances are likely to stay low as long as other clubs offer better deals.

Seats are available over Christmas and the New Year at

Aston Villa v Wigan @ £20
Aston Villa v Ipswich @ £15
Birmingham v Burnley @ £16
Millwall v Preston @ £15
Colchester v Swindon @ 18

as I said previously I could add many many more...in fact almost all clubs have matches with lower prices than we have to pay for a seat.

I do not especially like what Karen Brady stands for but was fortunate enough to meet her at a business function several years ago when she was at Birmingham City. Her view was that you had 21 chances (or "events") in which to maximise profits at a football club and each "event" should be treated differently to ensure you maximise sales whilst maintaining your brand.

So importatnt was it to Karen Brady that she would have a day long meeting 6 weeks before each match to discuss what could be done, try new ideas and ensure Birmingham City was doing as well as it could at each event.

Many teams are starting to run their clubs very much in this way to bring a bit of excitment back into their club. At the end of the day if your barnd is so big (Manchester United) you have to make less effort to bring in the money than if you are running Birmingham City or even little old Torquay United

The bolded bit is a good point. However as sad as it is, it's better for the club to get 2300 at £18/£20, than it is to maybe get 3200 at £12/£14. Do we think that if we reduced our prices to something similar to what I mention we'd pick up another 1000 supporters? I think it'd be interesting to see. I certainly remember 10 years or so ago where we averaged 3200/3300 each game, but over that decade we seem to have lost around 1000 fans. It is so refreshing going to Burton because you know that you're paying a price you don't really mind paying to watch L2 football. I'd like to think that we could improve our attendances by doing something similar, but I highly doubt it.

As for the topic itself, I'd enjoy it for a year I think, but no more than that. I'd like to think the Championship is a realistic aim though, much in the same ilk that Scunny and Colchester enjoyed a period there.

[MidDevon]

I would love the club to try something similar to that tried by Hartlepool United last season

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... t-100.html

Essentially the more tickets sold, the lower the price eveyone pays. I am not saying season tickets should go as low as the £100 Hartlepool fans paid but a great way to generate early season interest and sure to generate some more sales.

At the end of the day, it could be a scheme, if well thought out that fans and club alike benefit from

It is worth remembering that Hartlepool revereted to "normal" ticket prices this year

http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/hartlep ... 5k-1268857

yes that is £155 a season!

[tufcbrett]

If we ever made it to the Prem we would always be a team like wigan. We would never be able to get players on big wages and i doubt would sell out a stadium. I went to a wigan game and to be honest it was cheaper than one of our games and the actual day out it self was no different by going to the local bar then off into the stands to watch a game. I would never say no to that as it would be nice to beat a few bigger sides week in week out.

What ever league we are in and who ever we are playing i will always support the club. Would love us to be a championship side and have a season in the big time and if we got relegated like blackpool then so be it. For the moment league 2 it is and it would be nice to make the step up to league 1 within the next few years.